[WIP] New trait: Throwing Addict #39919
Conversation
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Honestly this trait feel way too "game-y". I can't imagine IRL equivalent of it. |
It wasn't really a trait with IRL in mind. It's more of a "choose this so you can't use bows or guns" similar to how wayfarer denies use of vehicles. It's definitely more game-y since the goal in mind for the trait is player challenge and play diversity -not realism. Other traits that are also "gamey" (personal opinion only, and not a comprehensive list): Animal empathy, deft, fleet footed, quick, gourmand, night vision, parkour expert, robust genetics, scout, genetic downward spiral, imperceptive healer, wayfarer etc. |
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I love the fact that we have some slightly "gamey" traits that let you mix up your gameplay, and this fits in well with those. Would make for a fun alternate run. A thought i had that might make it feel slightly more thematic might be changing it to "no guns" instead of "no ranged weapons". Would go well with churl, or for characters that are somehow anti-gun. |
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I agree with Brian-Otten that slightly gamey traits lead to some fun alternate runs. I feel this trait would be a great addition to the game considering people's over reliance on certain mechanics to survive such as bows, guns, and cars. Speaking of which, having none of the above (No ranged weapons + Wayfarer) would get crazy really quick. How are you going to deal with those Kevlar Hulk now without your death mobile/Sniper/recurve bow? As a counter point, I see OP's intent in denying bows along with guns (despite being thematically inconsistent). Bows and guns are ultimately different sides of the same coin, and one could just as easily opt for the other if one of them were "disabled". |
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Is magic a "weapon"? does it make sense to disallow ranged attack spells as well? |
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This doesn't need a trait. If you want to play a character without guns you the player can easily do that without any game mechanic for it. |
You can play as vegan without traits too, but this removes even the possibility. Basically the same as Wayfarer |
I don't know how exactly ranged attack spells work, so I can't say for sure since I don't play with magiclysm. Do ranged attack spells require a weapon? Is that weapon in the gun category? If it is, then does it not use pebbles or rocks as ammo? If all of the above is true, then it is disallowed. The goal is only bows and guns. I can look into adding an exclusion if this is the case.
The traits illiterate (books), wayfarer (vehicles), squeamish (filthy clothes), and wool allergy (well, wool) are some other traits that disable some mechanics. They can all be categorized as "you can do that without a game mechanic". To a much lesser degree hoarder, nomad, pacifist, and rigid table manners could also fit that description. |
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a way to make this trait plausible could be to rename it to "unable to aim". It could be seen IRL as some innate psychomotor limitation that prevents the player from anticipating where their projectiles are going to go. |
I'm averse to completely being unable to aim. I feel it would remove far too much from the game and push it out of the score of a 4 point trait (which I would like to keep). Keeping throwing and other throwing related weapons is a big part of why I chose to go with excluding some things. It would give a niche use to slings and slingshots, and give throwing some mid to end game relevance. An example would be turrets. With throwing, atleast you can inch closer while hiding behind a bookshelf and pushing yourself closer to peek around and toss whatever you like to. With throwing, grenades are also possible. Semantically speaking, "No ranged weapons" does feel like an inaccurate representation of what the trait actually does since there are exceptions, even though what isn't allowed is described in the description. I'm definitely not against a "guns only" trait, but that would be out of scope for this PR and need to be added in a different PR. |
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Due to feedback, I have changed the name and description. It is now Throwing Addict, and description says the following: While others have bows and guns, your only choice of ranged weaponry are thrown items, slings, and slingshots. |
This is definitely a big improvement over "No ranged weapons"! Atleast now, with the new name and description it's thematically consistent with your implementation. For what it's worth, it gives it a tie-in to IRL. |
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Isn't it just a "give me point to play this throwing build I want to make" trait? |
You can play any throwing build you want regardless of this trait's existence though? Throwing builds are fundamentally more difficult due to range, damage, and ammo constraits than bows and guns. |
You don't have to pick this trait at character creation, in the same way that you don't have to pick Wayfarer. I suggested this as I imagine some players would be interested in a "melee-only" challenge.
Why do you want to keep this specific score?
I'm in favor of adding traits that encourage using the throwing skill, as long as they make sense. My point is, @Brian-Otten's suggestion makes sense in real life as some people are opposed to or afraid of using guns. My suggestion would make sense for someone that can not aim at all. However I can't see why someone would be unable/unwilling to use a bow when they can use a sling (barring strength requirements of course). If you can find a (valid) reason for this, I'd suggest adding another separate trait preventing from using bows and such, and you could have your run by taking these two traits (no guns + no bows). It would be a total of 3 traits (no guns, no bows, no ranged at all, the third being exclusive with the first two). As you said, the third trait is out of scope for this PR, I'm just sharing thoughts for the future. |
Understood. Please note above that the above states he's not averse to other traits, it's just not the goal of this PR.
To keep compatibility with other high point challenge traits I would figure -namely fragile, imperceptive healer, and wayfarer. Moving it above 4 points would be over the default 12 point cap. |
As stated in my previous reply, we agree on this point.
Balance is a valid point. However I think we ought to balance traits once we've clearly defined them.
I never stated (nor thought for that matter) that you failed to understand my reasoning. Plus, I was replying to @CodeBandit, so except if you're the same person I don't understand why you tell me this? EDIT: for anyone wondering what this message is referring to, please see the attached screenshot of the conversation before deletion of a message. |
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@enaantd @CodeBandit |
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@sIeRsHa got the first 2 points down. As for the third for why you're speaking on my behalf, I don't really understand what the discourse was about; he wasn't really coming across as what you say -just definitely something to keep in mind for the future. As it is, I'm happy with the trait for its intended purpose. Beyond this is the hand of merging or closing. |
Please refer to my edited comment above as a reply to this comment. |
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I don't like the goal of, "convince people to do suboptimal things by awarding them character generation points", if you want a challenge take a challenge, but it's incoherent to then award points for it Solutions: |
CodeBandit
changed the title
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With Kevin's response and after reading through this: I've decided to scrap this trait completely |
Summary
SUMMARY: Content "Added a new negative trait: 'Throwing Addict'"Purpose of change
Add a new negative trait worth 4 points that remove the use of bows and guns, and use throwing as the primary means of ranged attacks. Ranged weapons using pebbles and rocks are still allowed (slings and slingshots).
Throwing addict description:
While others have bows and guns, your only choice of ranged weaponry are thrown items, slings, and slingshots.
Describe the solution
Prevent the usage of the following with pseudo-witty remarks:
Finger lasers
All guns (including holster firing, and all bows since they're categorized as guns)
All bows (see above)
Turret usage from controls
Manual turret usage
Allow the usage of anything using ammo_types classified as pebbles and rocks. To my knowledge, they are the following:
Sling
Slingshot
sling staff
Testing
Extensively tested with firing finger lasers, guns, bows, and turrets.
I also tested throwing, slings, and slingshots. These are allowed.
Tested reach weapons to make sure they're left unaffected.
Notes
Previously called "No ranged weapons". It was semantically and descriptively inaccurate as pointed out by feedback. It has been changed to Throwing Addict.