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Incorrect eTIV estimates #378
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You probably already know about this option, but the flag "-samseg-reg" in recon-all for talairach registration is superior in my experience. |
My initial analysis shows, that etiv estimation error is relatively prevalent. A BrainSegVol-to-eTIV < 0.9 is very indicative of a failed talairach registration. Before this issue is fixed, eTIV estimates of FastSurfer should not be trusted. |
@robbwh Thanks! We are aware of the option, but this cannot easily be added to FastSurfer at the moment. It does point out an alternative approach to etiv calculation (that we were also aware of :-) ) as well ... through the samseg segmentation. |
A consistent shift in eTIV is possible and no reason for concern (since we register a different image to the talairach average). Did you check the registration visually? We also need to make sure that for this check you use the correct talairach average as FreeSurfer has several. |
Documentation on eTIV in FreeSurfer and FastSurfer. Currently both extract the eTIV from the determinant of the talairach.xfm file which get's created very early. See also https://surfer.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/fswiki/eTIV . FreeSurfer Steps:
FastSurfer
A problem is that the global re-scaling in our code differs from what FreeSurfer does, which affects the nu_orig.mgz in some cases and makes talairach_avi fail. One reason is probably that we crop the ball around the brain center with brain mask (which removes non-brain tissue, basically a good thing, but affects the scaling parameters a lot). One easy quick-fix could be to continue to use the brain mask for N4 correct (which should actually help) but then not for cropping the ball and determining the UCHAR re-scaling, to make it more similar to FreeSurfer. Another option is to better understand how the intercept and slope for the scaling are determined in FreeSurfer and do a better rescaling, e.g. since we already have a WM segmentation anyway. It however looks like FreeSurfer does not actually adjust WM mean to 110 but slightly off (we need to test if the mean is always consistently shifted or just noisy). Furthermore it is currently unclear where the 1st percentile should be (for lower cut-off). All this affects talairach.xfm and therefore eTIV computation. Currently it is unclear how much it affects surfaces, thickness and other structures (e.g. when computing volumes with partial volume correction in mri_segstats). Since that uses norm.mgz we may need to do even more structure based scaling as in FreeSurfer to make that more similar. But we also provide segmentations from our VINN, so if volume estimates differ, how much of that is due to that prediction and how much due to different partial volume estimation. Finally, even if we have consistently shifted volumes estimates compared to FreeSurfer, given that there is no reliable ground truth available, this does not really matter as long as downstream tasks such as test-retest and group separation task in FastSurfer continue to outperform the same in FreeSurfer. |
I pushed a fix to this issue in #387 . Next step is to run our validation Pipeline so we can verify and document that the issue has been resolved. |
#387 is merged into dev, pending validation |
Description
We have found and confirmed too-slow eTIV estimates, for example as found in <subject_dir>/<subject_id>/stats/aseg.stats.
eTIV estimates are in some cases too small (volumes significantly below 1.5L).
This happens, because the talairach registration "fails" (it does not "fail-safe", but produces unreasonable registration matrices).
Since the eTIV estimation is based on the talairach registration, eTIV values are affected.
Both talairach registration and eTIV computation is performed by FreeSurfer binaries.
Note, that limitations to FreeSurfers eTIV estimation are well-known and documented, but we did not previously (and do not at this moment) specifically know how often this issue arises for FastSurfer.
Steps to Reproduce
Run FastSurfer (full pipeline) on affected subjects.
Expected Behavior
reasonable/correct eTIV estimates
Environment
any.
QC-Recommendations
Currently, etiv estimates of fastsurfer cannot be trusted.
At a minimum, check all eTIV values.
Specifically, the Measure BrainSegVol-to-eTIV in the aseg.stats file should be smaller than 0.9
Solutions
We will:
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