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{
  "Transcript_Bryn.txt": "Interviewer: OK, so shall we start with your personal item then? Do you want to tell me about your firefighter? \nUser:\nOK, so this is a lighter and ehm...you know, when I first started smoking heroin, we used to use matches. And then the lighter became a valuable tool of like everywhere I went...I'd always have the lighter because that was the most important thing of using, because without it you couldn't use basically. So, it was always been in my possession. \n\n\nInterviewer: Right. So, I guess then you injected heroin, is that right? \nUser:\nNo, I, I used to smoke heroin, but I have injected...I have I have been intravenous too...but primarily I'd smoke heroin yeah. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK, so it kind of almost is a necessity that without this thing you couldn't use. \nUser:\nYes. Yes. It was just it was it was a vital, vital part of of using, you know, and it's always been clever because it was refillable. So rather than running to the shops or running out, you know, you'd have a bottle of gas and you just fill it up and you're off and running again. So, it was vital, you know, even in wherever wherever I went, you know what I mean, the lighter is important. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that or how do you think it was during relapse. Would you say that if you wouldn't have had...like how, how do you think about it now about having the lighter with you? \nUser:\nWell, you know, it's...we blame a lot of attention on triggers, you know what I mean, but, you know, today I feel as triggers...you are always gonna come across triggers you know what I mean, you're always going to come across kitchen foil...you're always gonna come across lighters. If someone strikes a match, you get that smell of sulfur and it reminds you to using...but it's just an excuse to go and use...but today triggers...ah it's just cultural for me triggers you know what I mean. Even money...can be a trigger. Walking into people or ex-users in the street can be a trigger. I've got to, you know, stop blaming and look up, you know, my behavior. And I take it myself, you know what I mean? I'm not, it's not other things that are triggering me. It's me that triggers me. You know what I mean? It's my thought pattern that triggers me. You know what I mean. And, you know, I don't I don't associate triggers today with my relapse because it's me that makes me relapse, it's not the triggers. It's it's me. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Very good. Yes, I like that. That's a really good attitude to have actually. \nUser:\nYou know, for for years I used to go like, you know, ehm where there's a bad day and, you know, I felt miserable and relapsed and, you know what?, it was me, it's down to me. It's all it's all me. You know I was always blaming...if it wasn't for this person, what if it wasn't for that building or if it wasn't for that drug dealer...always blaming and people can say there are triggers but...I'm just blaming...It's me. I'm the biggest trigger...myself. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah. No, I that's really interesting. I think that's a really, really good attitude to have. So, I actually was wondering, would you like to maybe just walk me through some of your maybe the history of you using you said already you've you've you've been through prison and you've got probably rich experiences and maybe you just want to give me a little bit of a background of, you know, when did you start etc?\nUser:\nOk ehm we talk about deceit, dishonesty and self-will. I had all them traits before I even picked up a drink or drugs. I had all them traits, you know, and so I had an addictive personality, even from a child. You know, we grew up in poverty and I was the youngest of 11 children. My father died, a five-year-old, and my mother worked two jobs. So, my mother wasn't around as a child from the age of five onwards. So, I was like left to me own devices. I had siblings bringing me up. And so, me mother was out of me life because she had to put food on the table and a roof over our heads. So, she was hard working woman, you know what I mean? She had two jobs and she went from one job to the other and we didn't see. She was out from 7:00 in the morning till 10:00 at night. And, you know, I was left to my own devices and I was running on self-will from a very young age, committing petty crime and things like that. And because I didn't get what I wanted, I'd go out and steal. I had that lifestyle growing up. I used to go to the football a lot and watch watch [football team]. We just beat ehm [competitor football team]. In [date] and we won the [championship] and then [date] I started going to football games and I was about 12-13 years old and that was an addiction, you know, I loved it, I obsessed about it and ehm we got to Wembley and I went to Wembley and me mother wouldn't let me go because I was only like 14 years of age, wouldn't let me go to CE on my own. And I was terrible for running away from home as a young child, you know, I probably put mom through a lot of worry. And I run away from home and went to Wembley, watched the match, and after that I lost me friend coming out of the crowds, you know, with the crowds and things like that. So I knew my sister lived in CE and I turned up at her door in CE, and she was surprised to see me. She welcomed me in. And that night she introduced me to Cannabis, you know, and I was like 14 years of age. And she introduced me to speed and tablets too...and so...cut a long story short, I ended up going home after two weeks. Me mother and me other sister said it was their fault that she sent me away. I was supposed to be at school and that was the start of it. So, I started smoking cannabis after she left and I got to about 1980, I was still at school. And I was 16 years of age and we'd go, we had this mentality of life. We thought heroin you put it in a syringe and it's up your arm and we said we'd never touch heroin as a little fame of mates, you know, we were smoking cannabis and things like that experiment...we were just experimenting. And we thought we could put it down and experiment, put it down. And this 14-year-old introduced us to a drug called Skag (heroin). It was called...I mean, we were like, what's going on? We were confused. We were naive. And he was like, showing us how to put it on the foil and smoking it. And this powder turned to oil and we were all amazed and we all had a go and we all loved it. It was like it was really a powerful drug. We we thought we could experiment and put it down...once we tried heroin, we loved it and we couldn't put it down. And and then about three months down the line, we found out that Skag was heroin, and we were all devastated. We were we were we were devastated because we thought, heroin you'd have to put it in a syringe and up your arm...we didn't know you could smoke heroin, that's how naive we were around drugs. So, we had no education on addiction or substance misuse or anything, you know what I mean? It was just so it went from there and then. \n\nAnd that was me. That was me, life, fairly up until like...going out, committing crime, using, committing crime, and then at the age of 20, I ended up going to prison for the first time and that was about 1986. I got a two-year sentence for a burglary on a commercial premise and down south. And we ended up in that prison. And I was there for a year and then I came home and then me daughter...I met up with me girlfriend, she was a heroin user too...so I relapsed then. You know, I didn't use in prison for that year. And then when I got out, I ended up straight back where, where I left off, you know, straight back on morphine...ehm met a girl she was on heroin, so I ended up using with her. So, I relapsed and then she got...we we tried to run away from our addiction. And we ran to CE and and then me daughter was conceived there in CE. And ehm me girfriend stopped using because of pregnancy. And I carried on using. And, you know, I bumped into a CE guy. I was doing well. I got about three months clean from the prison experience that I'd done before in SE and there were a lot of CE guys in there...so I bumped into this guy just by chance on the on the off on the street. I asked him where he was going and he said he was going to score and before I knew it, I was with him and I was scoring with him. So, I used I, me, my girlfriend stayed clean. And then she got to about seven months, I carried on using...She got about seven months pregnant and then she wanted to come back home to NE and have the baby in NE. So, we came home...ehm I was carry on using. My daughter was born. I was still using ehm I was present, but I wasn't vacant if you know what I mean. I was I was under the influence and then. Yeah. And then it was just a matter of providing then for me daughter. Me girlfriend had her baby after about three or four weeks I was using in front of her...and she she ended up relapsing again. She, she ended up saying years ago when I was trying to say no and it was she always told me to shut up and just like took the foil off me and she relapsed too...so the pair of us were in co-dependency. We were coming out shoplifting and things like that and to provide. I was doing burglaries on commercial premises and then I got arrested again for, for a shopping center that I was burglaring in the shop and I got caught and I got a three-year sentence when me daughter was eight months, so I was in that cycle erm for about twenty years. I went away when me daughter was like eight months old and I was in and out in and out in her life for a couple of months and then I was back in prison and it was like I was prolific offending and ehm...I ended up coming home and she was like 14 when I finished my prison sentence. I was an absent father. Through all this you know, I feel a lot of shame and guilt around that ehm...then erm so while I come near the end I was doing a six year prison sentence in NE, I'd had a four year prison sentence in NE for supply and I had - when I say supply, it's charged with supplying. I got four years for a gram, one gram of heroin and I've got a four-year sentence that I think I got slammed harshly done by, I should say, for one gram...then I got out and then I was back in NE and I had a ounce of crack cocaine and I got arrested again with the ounce of crack cocaine. And I got a six-year sentence for that, for the crack cocaine. So all these sentences, I thought the only way out of addiction was by going to prison out on which I because my addiction still carried on when I was in prison. \n\nI was still running around. I, I ended up with [illness] through injecting in prison in NE, which, you know, I count me lucky stars really because [illness] was quite strong in NE and like [city in NE] is like the capital of [illness] victims, so I was pretty lucky that I didn't catch [illness] and it was only [illness], I say only. That's bad enough. You know what I mean? It could have been worse. So ehm I was phoning my mother constantly and you know, and she phoned me one day and she called me. She was effing and blinding at me and obviously over the phone that I was home and I didn't say goodbye with the fellow. And I thought 'mom I was being away for two years what are you on about?' And then I said, 'I'll phone you back in a minute' and then I phoned me sister and I said to her 'me mum is talking a bit strange she was saying I was home and I've been away for the past two years'. And she said she thinks she's got dementia. So, you know that was like another guilt, you know what I mean? Have I caused this dementia over the worry and shame and guilt that I've caused this woman, you know, because she was a strong woman, she didn't bring me up to be a heroin addict. You know, I broke her heart when she found me with a needle in my arms. So, I came out of prison and I looked after my mother for two years. I was still in addiction. I was still using heroin. When I say I was looking after, she was still looking after me, you know, in my addiction. Then when she died, I made amends to her. I sat there for like two hours just held her hand and poured my heart out to her. And from that day on, 2002, that was from that day on, I thought, you know, I owe that woman a lot and it's about time I got my head together. So I was trying to get my head together for (emphasis) my mother. For (emphasis) my children. But never for me (emphasis), you know what I mean? It was never for me. Always for someone else. And I tried to go into rehab...ehm I lasted about six weeks in rehab and I couldn't take it..this was like...22 years, I've never tried any rehabilitation or anything you know what I mean, I was like 22 years addicted to heroin. And I could never...I've never been into rehab. And this was my first time in 2002, and it was too hard for me. I couldn't get it. I couldn't get the boundaries. I couldn't because I still has that jail mentality about me. You know that ego, you know what I mean? I still I have that, you know what I mean? And so I walked out and then I used and and then I went into many, many detox centers, came home and last about...and be like a bereavement. Like something had died in me because I loved it, you know what I mean? But that love turned to hate because of like the way it turns out, you know what I mean? And so, like, I started hating it and I kept on trying, I kept on going to fellowshipping once I got about six months abstinence and and I'd be relapsing. But I was still. Even though I was. Had stopped using heroin or drink, me behaviour was still the same and I'd still be committing crime and still be chasing money, chasing girls...you know that addicted behaviour, I had that addictive behavior. I still had them traits of deceit, dishonesty and self-will. Even though I put the drink and drugs down, I thought I could carry on regardless. \n\nToday I realize I can't do that. I've got to change my whole life, not just...the drink and drugs are just the symptom. You know, it's me. I'm the problem. You know what I mean? It's not the drink. It's not the drugs. It's me, I'm the problem. So I kept on going into detox, coming out lasting a few weeks, and then. That, you know, that obsession of I go to bed thinking of drugs, I wake up in the morning and I think of drugs and it'd be all over me, like, constantly torture of the mind. And then I come to a point where I think, you know what I can't handle this no more. And then I'd use...I never stop obsessing. That was all over me all the time. And then. As I say, I was still committing crime and I was in I was in [Country in Europe], up to no good...and I was with two friends, these two friends were uncle and nephew, these two friends. And we'd been out drinking. We got intoxicated. We were going to the crime and we were going to do the crime there on the on the Monday. On the Friday, we went out drinking. We got drunk. I got kicked out of the nightclub in [Country in Europe]. We were right on the border to [Country in Europe]. Ehm and basically they came out of the club and they would argue this is uncle and nephew. So we drove back to our hotel and he was driving erratic, still arguing. And I was trying to say to him, 'you know what he is your family, stop arguing' and trying to be the negotiator to keep the peace. We got back to the hotel and the uncle says to the nephew, 'you're the one with the perverse mind'. And he says, 'one minute you look up to me and the next minute you want to punch my face in'. And the nephew went, 'I know yeah', picked up the gun and just shot himself in the head and this was right in front of us ehm...I didn't know I had PTSD. But it troubled me for a lot of years, you know, and he ended up in a hospital in [Country in Europe]. And the inevitable died yah he died. And so that troubled me for a lot of years. And I was put on antidepressants. It was about ten years ago. I was about forty-six. And then and so it troubled me, you know, I got put on olanzapine, mirtazapine and pregabalin. It was like antipsychotics; you know it was like a blow to about 17 stone in weight. And for many years I was trying to get me head together, try to detox. I realized that these drugs will keep me in addiction, you know, so ehm fast forward to...I got a few more detoxes and I was on the antidepressant and I was on heroin. \n\nAnd me nephew came to stay with me and this is the first time really and I come to the decision where 'I've got a young boy to look after now' he's only 14. Erm 'I can't carry on spending my money on heroin and I have to look after this young boy'. So I went to a drug clinic and I asked for the subutex detox prescription so I got put on 60 mil because it had a blocker in it. I didn't want methadone because methadone I used on top of methadone. I think a lot of people, a lot of addicts use on top of methadone but with Subutex I knew there was a blocker in it and it wasn't worth using because it just be like burning your money, you know what I mean? You get nothing out of it. So I went on the Subutex and I was still on the antipsychotics and things like that. I just stopped. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I just stopped taking the antidepressants and antipsychotics. I just stopped taking them, and it was horrendous. It was the worst withdrawal I've ever done in me life. For six weeks I didn't eat a thing, I was vomiting, I didn't sleep, I was suicidal, I was climbing the walls. I mean, me mind was just gone. Much harder than heroin, mentally, psychologically, physically. And then I was sitting there depressed one day, was a lovely day, it was about 28 degrees outside and I had my curtains drawn and me mate knocked on the door. He'd been coming round every day. And he said, 'what are you up to?' I said, 'you know what, I'm depressed' and he said 'come for a game of Golf'. I looked at him 'Golf? You want me to play freaking Golf? I'm sitting here depressed and you want to play, I have never played Golf in me life!' Golf with me life.' and he said 'come for the walk' and I said 'get out of the house!'. He said, 'I'll play golf. You just come on the walk with me down the golf course'. I had done that on four occasions with him, walking on the golf course. Got me out myself, you know what I mean and then my nephew and me dad gave me a set of golf clubs. And I thought, I've never played golf in me life.'  But that concentration of trying to hit the ball straight and the exercise of walking round the golf course and just picking up a new hobby. You know, it got me head together and it got me out of me self. It got me out of depression. And I got my life back together. I got me family back. I'm a grandparent now. I've got a lovely grandchild. Golf got me head back together you know it got me conversing a lot better. I started interacting with people. I started, you know, communicating with people. Tell them what's going on for me. Yeah. So, I thought it was time to come off the Subutex now after 30 months. And I haven't drunk for 5 years and I haven't touched heroin for 2 years. And I'm 11 months clean of Subutex. So, my keyworker said I should go to rehab. So, I thought I got to go...you know that ego of like that shame, that embarrassment of going back to a place where I've been before and you know that. But, you know, it wasn't like that, you know, I had to drop that ego, that doubt of like you know, of going back to this place. So, I went back to treatment facility and they agreed they said 'yeah, we'll accept you again'. So I connected with the treatment facility cafe on a daily basis to show me commitment. Then I went into rehab in SWE and stayed there for six weeks and then when I got out, which was a great experience, you know, I got there and I thought, 'these people are not like me, they haven't lived the life I've led' and I was in a fight or flight mode, you know, because they were all like career minded people. They were like psychiatrist, doctors, musicians, teachers. They were everything but a criminal, you know. But, you know, we were all the same in that aspect of addiction. And then I came home on the 20th of December last year.\n\n\nInterviewer: So I actually I'm really interested in this because because you've got you have such a rich experience. If you can remember back to maybe a couple of relapse experiences you had, what exactly did it feel like? What like what does relapse feel like?\nUser:\nOf course. Ehm thoughts, there's a lot of thoughts in the buildup to relapse. It's like a torture of the mind; it's constant. You know, but it's like mine was constant. It was like a bereavement. It was like that was the feeling, as if like something was lost. I'd lost...see once I put drugs and drink down, I'm left with me. And all these feelings and emotions that I've suppressed over the years come surfacing. It's something new to you, you don't want to feel this stuff...like you feel an anxiety, you're feeling as if like when you relapse you feel like you feel like you've let yourself down, you've let your family down, you've let so many people down, like counselors and detox centres down. But most of all, you've let yourself down, you know, and if so, when you get a bit of recovery in you, it interferes with your using. You know there's a way out. You know, so it's it's it's like the torture to the mind. It's it's torture the mind, lack of sleep ehm like that sleep deprivation, you know, you feel weak - you're weak minded you're weak at the heart. You know, and I go through a lot of feelings and emotions. \n\n\nInterviewer: Would you say that has changed from from having, like, your first couple of relapses to your last couple of relapses, or was that always kind of the similar feeling or thoughts? \nUser:\nIt's it's it's it's like it's always the shame. It's like the torture of the mind, your mind is constantly racing. And, you know, it's that blaming all the time blaming people, places things...you know, but I'm going to come across these things. Today is different. Back then, I used to use any excuse, any excuse whatsoever to use. 'Oh, you made me feel like this. I'm going to go use'. And so it was that love of just being out of it. Being in a coma, I've been in a coma for like 40 years, 40 years as a heroin user. I'm lucky to still be alive. \n\n\nInterviewer: So that will be one of my next questions - how do you feel about having relapsed so many times? \nUser:\nI feel as if like I just wasn't ready. I feel I feel as if like it wasn't my time. I feel blessed that I got really, you know what I mean? I'm lucky to still be alive, you know, it's it's someone who's looking over me. I accept it, you know what I mean, today I accept it. I've got to accept it because if I beat myself up about it I'm just gonna maybe relapse again. I took me that long to get...you know I wish I did get it years ago, but I just wasn't ready. I wasn't listening. You know, isolation was a big part. I could be in a crowded room and still isolated me own head. My head was the biggest prison I've been in. But now I'm total abstinence. I have a new way of thinking. I don't even get an aspirin. It's the freedom of the mind. That obsession has gone on. I didn't think I'd ever get to this point. I wish I did get it years ago, but I didn't. So I can't beat myself up about I didn't get it because I wasn't ready.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So has going through those, you know, 10, 13 times of relapse changed the way that you view yourself? How would you say you've changed, I guess, from going through all of these relapse experiences? \nUser:\nYou know, I used to always feel myself as no good and nasty and ugly. I used to all have these negative ehm my self-esteem was low. I'd always feel self-pity. But today I realize, you know, I have a lot of shame and guilt around putting me daughter through it all.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So how would you say you've changed since your relapse experiences? It seems like you are a bit more clear in your head. You're a bit more supportive of your grandkids. You're there. You're showing them unconditional love. So it seems like there's there's been a shift in how you know from all of your relapse experience? \nUser:\nWell, I'd say it's like, you know, my daughter was born and the responsibility I had no responsibility, even though I had responsibility around my daughter. Because she was a girl, I had the attitude of like a girl for a girl, a mother to look after her, you know, she'll do the girly things. And then when my grandson was born. It was a little boy, you know what I mean? It was like. It's like the Stevie Wonder song, for once in my life, I have somebody who needs me, even though me daughter and me granddaughter needs me...that little boy. I thought now's the time to be a father. So me attitude changed. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. And also from you said because you said earlier that the first couple of times you relapsed you mentioned you weren't in the right mindset or headspace for how you are now. Can you kind of talk a little bit more about that? \nUser:\nI was just, you know. I was just running on my self-will, you know what I mean. I was like, I didn't care about law. I didn't care about I didn't care about myself. I didn't care about anyone. I didn't care about my kids. Maybe I just wanted to die, you know, I was just self-destructive every time and I just couldn't fight my way out, and then I was in Scotland in prison and a group of lads came in from Narcotics Anonymous. And I went on this group and I listened to a lad's story similar to mine, in and out of prison running on self-will, and using, committing crime, violence. And he turned his life around. And I thought, wow, he turned his life around by going to fellowship and it must have planted the seeds in me because I started like saying, OK, so when I got out I relapsed, but I never even relapsed, I was still using in prison. So like it was like when I got out, I was carrying on using. Then I'd meet people that I was using with and they were going to fellowship and they were clean. I was just looking at them, thinking 'well he can do it, then I can do it'.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So this is more about your experience of relapse. You can just pick maybe one or two that come to mind. Can you tell me how you felt when you were about to relapse? Like, were there any kind of particular thoughts you had or sensations in your body? \nUser:\nSo I'll give an example of like I went through treatment previously on another time, say about five, six years ago. This is this is our I done treatment, I graduated ehm I was going to fellowship and then further down the line I got complacent. I started thinking, you know, ' I go to meetings and then I let someone share and I wouldn't share back', I think, it made me feel worse. And then I get judgmental. I start labeling people. Then I start skipping meetings and then further down the line it'll be like in. So you know, my relapses start well before I've picked up. I get is on the line, it'll be like, you know, what are you doing so well, you know what I mean, I. You think you can control your addiction? I feel like I've just gonna have that one and then I'll put it down again. Bullshit! That obsession kicks in again in the brain. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK, so that with obsession. What do you mean? Is it is it like voices you hearing or what exactly describe that obsession? \nUser:\nSo the obsession would be like that ambivience (ambivalence) of the brain. I would be like, one part of your brain saying 'that was alright that last one' and the other part saying 'no that's wrong, don't do that.' So it's like that argument going. It's like an argument going on in your head. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, I see. Yeah. So if you had to describe what relapse means to you, what would you say? What does it mean to you? \nUser:\nRelapse in a word is failure. You fail to comply. That argument of the brain again saying, 'you know what, you're not alcoholic. You can have a drink'. And that obsession will be like 'it's OK to go and have a drink because you're not touching heroin'. So, you know, that's like distorted thinking, you know what I mean? So that cross addiction as well.\n\n\nInterviewer: So do you have like do you have a definition of relapse? Because it's interesting that you say it's just when you think about heroin or crack, but not so much about drinking, so what exactly would you define as a relapse? \nUser:\nUsually any any mind-altering substance. Anything I can't even take a codeine tablet because to me that would be a relapse. Codeine will take me back to my drug of choice. So a relapse is to take anything that's opiate based, anything that's alcohol based, anything that's cannabis based, any drug, any mind altering. It doesn't have to be heroin; it could be anything and that for me. Anything is a relapse. So I have to bring total abstinence into my life. When I'm in that abstinence, anything that I touch that is mind-altering, is a relapse. It's all relapse. You know, I heard people say, 'oh, I had a lapse not a relapse'. You know, because people some people might use for one day and then get back into recovery. They say it's a lapse. But to me it's a relapse for one day. \n\n\nInterviewer: How did it make you feel then going back to treatment because you tried detox and certain programs. How did you feel when you then went back into treatment? \nUser:\nA lot of shame, guilt, embarrassment. You know, that that ego of like well, I went back to treatment centre and I had been there three times before. And that negativity was kicking in like 'you don't need this...all the shame of walking back and seeing the same faces, the same stuff. Knowing that you were a failure last time. It didn't work for you last time'. Had to drop all that ego and just face that fear. And that's what it was, it's a fear, fear based on this. It's like I have to face that fear and all the negativity of like, he'll start laughing at me. You know, all that stuff. You'll start judging you all that negativity. It wasn't like that, that was just my thinking. It wasn't like that. They embraced me with open arms and were glad to see me. You know what I mean? So facing the fear was the best thing I ever done. \n\n\nInterviewer: That's awesome. Yeah. How did you get motivated for recovery? Like what was there the kind of change for you to say, you know, you've had you've relapsed so many times. How did you motivate yourself for recovery?\nUser:\nWell, you know, my nephew coming to stay with me. Given me the responsibility of looking after someone in my own home, because for years I've been on my own. Left on my own. Even though I have a daughter, I never really have that responsibility of her living with me. I wasn't like a family. It didn't feel like a family. So my nephew coming to stay with me. I have a responsibility to look after and that gave me the kick up he backside that I needed. I couldn't afford to be spending all my money. I could I could starve myself. I had no perfusing to cope with myself. I use all my money on heroin and let heroin feed me. But once that 14-year-old boy come walking into my life. I thought, I've got to feed this lad. I've got I've got to look after him. \n\n\nInterviewer: And there was this other kind of experience you had when somebody from an NA came in prison and and shared and planted a seed in you. Right. So those are kind of those are kind of some key moments for you.\nUser:\nYeah. So I'm like, yeah, it's like a dilemma once once you got a taste of recovery, even if it's only two weeks, three weeks, maybe a month, maybe six weeks, once you've got that taste of recovery, you see how much you enjoy your life in that six weeks, how much things changed. So when you get that taste of recovery, you see the little sparkle and they're all saying, oh, well, you laugh and you relapse and then it's like, oh I've let everyone down again. It's like I've let myself down and I'm back out there I'm doing the things that I'm doing. Harming people and committing crime. You know, but you've got that little seed in the back of your head saying 'there's a way out of this.' \n\n\nInterviewer: So if you had to describe what recovery means to you, having, you know, having had all of these relapses, would you say, yeah. What does recovery mean to you now? And has that changed with the number of times that you have relapsed? \nUser:\nRecovery means to me ehm in a way love. You know, you start loving people because I could never love myself. You got a lot of love in recovery ehm people love your humor, people love your, you know, experience, people love your character your persona. Recovery you gotta work, you gotta work on recovery because recovery is not going to come and knock on your door. You've got to get up and go and look for recovery. You've got to get out of the isolation, get out of your own head and start exploring. You've got to you've got to connect, connect with your family and you've got to find a balance in recovery. First and foremost, I've got to help myself. If I can't help myself, how can I help with people and then I burn myself out and then a relapse is in the pipeline. So I've got to find a balance to find balance and recovery. Playing golf is recovery. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know being with my grandson is recovery. Drinking orange juice in the morning is recovery. You know it's not all about step work and fellowship and counselors and sponsors, that's part of it, but I've got to find the recovery. I've got to find the balance in the recovery. \n\n\nInterviewer: Is that how you first thought about recovery when you first started?\nUser:\nIt was all them things...fellowship ehm counseling and volunteering work and then you find out there's not enough hours in the day to do it all. Most of my experience comes from relapse.  Awareness, acceptance is all key. Because if I carry that shame and guilt with me, relapse is in a relapse is in the pipeline because I can't handle that shame and guilt no more that I'm going to. I don't want to feel shame and guilt. I'm going to relapse on it. I've got to forgive myself. I forgive others.  \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yes, that's right. So how do you protect yourself from a relapse on a day to day basis? But how do you manage not relapsing? \nUser:\nI have a higher power in my life and a higher power, first and foremost is a God. A higher power could be in many things for me, you know, sitting here and talking to you is higher power, you being put in my path today. I I believe my higher power works through other people to help me through my journey. If my house was on fire, I would hand it over to a higher power, if my house got burgled I'd hand it over to a higher power and phone the police. You know, and rather than trying to do it on me own, you know what I mean? I'm not alone today. I have a lot of good people around me, people in fellowship, family, friends and I just pray for guidance and strength to carry on. And that's what saves me from relapse. I connect.\n\n\nInterviewer: Awesome. Yeah, that's amazing. Did you say would you say that that has kind of changed with the number of times you will reach your relapse so that let's say if you think about the first couple of times you've relapsed and you were in treatment, did did you do anything different then than you do now to protect yourself from using again? \nUser:\nYeah, I isolated. Even when I was in treatment. I isolated in my own head. I'd be sitting in a room. I wasn't in the here and now I was in presence in the room. I wasn't interacting with people. I was just isolated. I was locked in my own thoughts. And you know I could still be in denial today, even though 11 months clean I can still have that stinking thinking of being in denial. I'm willing, open and honest today you know what I mean. You've got to change the whole persona of your life. You know, it's like. It's not just it's not what you say, it's how you say it. And you can you can hurt people's feelings by, your mouth. So I'm trying to change, but there's a lot of things that I have to. It's a process that's ongoing. I might relapse in the future but I don't know. But I'm not in that relapse frame of mind today. \n\n\nInterviewer: Is there anything that you think you have missed telling me about your experience? \nUser:\nYou know, it's it's it's it's simple, it's no time like the present, and when people come into treatments that's the time when you should engage. You have that opportunity to change the life around, take that opportunity with both hands. Because if you are like me in the past, just sat there and just went through the process and not listening. Listening is a big key. And identifying with people's problems with your own problems exposed. As I said, there's no time like the here and now, an opportunity to take, you know, our past is my past is my past, I don't dwell on the past. I can't I can't change the past, but I can change my future. \n\n\nInterviewer [01:28:04] That's right. \n\n",
  "Transcript_Jack.txt": "Interviewer: What kind of thoughts did you have about this study? When I asked you to participate? User:\nYeah well, generally uhm I think it was kinda like...it didn’t take me long to decide that I wanted to do it. It was kind of an initial like ‘yeah for sure’ uhm. I’m always keen to be involved with something that could uhm you know raise general awareness uhm and it can’t be a bad thing you know to hear another story uhm…I’m all kind of like information of somebody’s experience uhm…and yeah, I was also like pretty aware it like it is likely to be pretty therapeutic for me you know I’ve had some sort of counselling over the past few years and generally the more I explain uhm…you know my journey with addiction and stuff…uhm the clearer I feel in my own mind about how things happened and where things are going and where I want things to go….yeah a combination of these things so hopefully beneficial for you and also beneficial for me. So yeah that’s kind of why I’ve decided really.\n\nInterviewer: What was it like for you be asked by a stranger to bring a personal item?\nUser:\nYeah so uhm…it’s it’s cool like. It’s kind of uhm…quite like validating in a way. You know I find possessions or whatever it is that you associate with your experience of addiction or relapse can be quite personal things that perhaps you know I’ve not been spoken about before. They’ve just been things which were important to me in some way…uhm and so yeah like it thought was a cool kind of feature of the interview. And I liked what you said you know adding some kind of visual depth to the story and how visuals can really help in telling a story…so yeah. I thought it was a cool thing to ask. And it was kind of interesting for me to think about what that could be. I had a couple of things to choose from but uhm…yeah so it was a cool thing to ask.\n\nInterviewer: So, what made you choose your item then? What made you choose yours?\nUser:\nYeah uhm I mean the one I was gonna choose was like a little lavender smelling square you know one of those little uhm…well this isn’t the one that I’m gonna use but it’s this thing right (shows lavender pouch). It’s like scented with lavender. And I was gonna use that because someone gave that to me uhm during like the worst relapse I had you know that was actually in SW uhm…where I ended up living in the hospital and yeah….was just like a really bad few months you know. And she gave that to me out of the blue and I was really touched you know that was a really kind thing to do uhm…and this was like 2 years ago so during the time I’ve been back in SW and it was also the case that uhm it’s kind of important because she’s actually now my girlfriend we are now in a relationship together two years later uhm….which is kind of funny how it happens you know. But yah I’m rambling a bit. But actually, so this is my bag (shows bag pack).\nYeah uhm it’s pretty like knackered uhm it’s pretty old uhm and I’ve actually had I’ve had this with me like through pretty much all of my addiction uhm…but I got it in CE at some like early morning like street market. I paid like 2 or 3 pounds for it. Which is like super cheap and uhm…yeah, it’s kinda cool because it’s got like…you might not be able to make it out (holds up his item) but it’s got some like writing on the back. \n\nInterviewer: Yeah, I do! There are some numbers on there?\nUser:\nYeah so there’s a name and it’s got these military codes. I didn’t think too much of it you know I’ve worn it for a long time. But then someone told me like ‘they used these bags in the Falkland War’ uhm...like these bags and I searched the codes online and uhm…actually found…like I’ve narrowed it down to a picture of like 30 soldiers. And it was one of their bags uhm…which I thought was kinda cool. Yeah so, it’s just like uhm…it’s basically you know...it’s kind of symbolic to me of like uhm…you know I was living around lots of different places for a while uhm….so during my using staying on different people’s floors and was on a couple of boats and I’ve always had this bag with me. Uhm so it’s there’s something kinda homely about it for me. And yet like it was with me through my worst kinda experiences of addiction and relapse and also like you know…when I’d relapsed you know I got to a point several years ago where I was like if I was using drugs I wouldn’t really have anyone to live with because…I had kind of burned those bridges you know. Uhm…don’t get me wrong like I’ve had lots of support and when I moved back to SW I’ve had my parents took me in for a while...it’s kind of symbolic because it’s like if I’m relapsing I’m gonna be out kind of you know on the roof again and I’ll have this bag (points to bag) and you know for a long time I’ve had everything I needed in it…and it would come with me to different places while I was you know in relapse or using so…I think that was the best thing to to use. Uh yeah.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah that is so amazing almost like I’m getting this idea of like ‘through thick and thin’ kind of like even to the point where you picked it up from somewhere where it had already been through thick and thin with somebody before. It’s almost as if the bag came from a soldier and now you picked it up and have become your own soldier if you will you know in your own war.\nUser:\nYeah you could say that! For sure. Though I do wonder like, if the guy is still alive you know. The guy whose bag it was. Be interesting to… yeah.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah of course. You didn’t find that out, did you?\nUser:\nNo, it was...I just narrowed it down to like 30 soldiers and it was one of them, but I didn’t get much further than that. Uhm I’m sure I could if I’d spent some time. But you know I don’t wanna…you know if I would find him, I might feel inclined to like give it back to him you know. And I don’t know if I’m ready to do that (laughs). But yeah, it’s cool like it’s got a long history, I guess. And it is really good quality it should last me a long time I guess these military bags are built to last a lifetime you know.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah definitely. So, I guess how it connects to your experience of relapse is that it reminds you of those times and it was always with you in those times like a companion and is therefore pretty meaningful. I get the sense that you are pretty attached to it as it has been with you through thick and thin like you said. Would you say anything more about this or does this capture the connection between your bag and your experience?\nUser:\nYeah I mean I think you summarised it pretty well but I could say more...I mean uhm…yeah I think uhm…it’s kind of like a symbol of like uhm like safety and home and comfort for me. And I’m a bit like that with things anyways like I’ve always been quite attached to like…things that that…you know it’s a bit silly like...I wear my clothes until they fall apart you know because I get really attached and uhm….I’ve had it since childhood you know so it’s kind of part of a control thing and a comfort thing …and it’s kind of like I’ve had this relationship with things and it’s definitely a way for me like kind of a healthy way of control because regardless of what’s going on around me uhm I got that constant…..I’m like that with quite a lot of things. I can find it really hard to let go of a pair of boots for example…uhm. To a point you know it’s quite obsessive uhm but in the sense of the bag I think it’s kind of a positive thing. So yeah uhm…it’s like...a symbol of like stability and yeah there is a constant.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah that sounds so interesting. I just had another thought uhm of you know what would happen if you were...you know if you feel a bit attached to this as a reminder of those times uhm did it ever hinder you from moving on? Did that ever occur to you that maybe the connection you built with that bag did it ever hinder you…I mean it might not have but that was just a thought I had.\nUser:\nYeah good question uhm because…uhm I did (emphasis) have a period of not using it you know. Uhm and it’s cuz it’s a pretty big bag and I’d like wear it down the road to the shops to get some bread and and it’s yeah often with me and I think quite a few people uhm….associate it with me just cuz I have it with me a lot of the time. But…I did at one point…when I moved into the place where I live now about 2 years ago…it’s a very positive place and there’s a very positive energy just generally a bedsit you know but generally I’ve made a lot of progress since I’ve been here. And when I moved in here, I didn’t use the bag for a really long time…uhm…and then when I started using it again it was (emphasis) kinda like a reminder of times past. Uhm….I saw a friend recently and she’d not seen me pretty well and she’d not seen the bag for a while and as soon as she saw it...it was kinda like it took her (emphasis) back because she’s also in recovery and at one point we were in like….you know we both relapsed around the same time and we were like you know…she actually stayed with me in a hostel for a while and we were both in pretty bad shape and it really reminded her of that time. But I think because it’s still being around uhm …I’ve been able to kind of imbue it with kind of more of a positive thing…it always has kinda been more of a positive thing…yeah at times it kind of reminded of that. It’s got like some secret pockets and stuff in the back here (shows bag) don’t know if you can see. And when I was like… you know using I used to go score ...uhm score drugs and then I would put them in the back here uhm…but actually now I use it for like feathers (takes out 4-5 bird feathers he collected) like I’ve got loads of feathers in here. I mean like f****** loads I’ve not emptied it for a while. But yeah, I used to put drugs in there and so that pocket did really remind me of that. I mean I’d have like needles int here and it would go all in that back slot…. You know sometimes using… especially using cocaine you know and get kinda paranoid and I was hiding stuff in the bag there….uhm and…yeah I guess again it’s kind of like it’s now getting used to collect feathers which is something I like to do so it’s been on that journey of like from having something negative to something that’s just kinda like a nice thing I guess. So yeah, I’m rambling a bit but yeah, I think there’s quite a lot I could say about it. \n\nInterviewer: Yeah, no that’s all good! Yah so I think I haven’t asked you this but uhm how many times would you say you’ve relapsed throughout your life?\nUser:\nYeah that’s definitely uhm like…it’s been quite a few times because uhm…you know like after I after I…I mean...I started using drugs quite young, but it wasn’t until I was like sort of 21 or 22 that I got into heroin. And I would use cocaine here and there and drunk a lot of alcohol you know in my younger years. But it wasn’t until I got into heroin that I really started to consider myself a drug addict I suppose uhm…and so after that like when I got into taking heroin I would use for a week or couple weeks and then I would stop…try and stop for a while…uhm so I guess I’d count some of those times as relapses where it wasn’t long after I started taking and I was like ‘I need to stop this’ and I would try and end up using again. So that’s a kind of relapse I suppose…but in terms of like sort of major relapses since I’ve been really trying to change things…uhm yeah, I mean…something like kind of 6 big relapses after I had a sustained period of abstinence I would say. But you know quite a few times there’s more than that in sort of slightly lesser senses where I’ve slipped up and used one time and got clean again. You know? If that answers the question?\n\nInterviewer: Oh, absolutely yeah. So how do you feel about that? How you feel about having had six major relapses or even you know with a few mor blibs?\nUser:\nUhm yeah I mean…it’s definitely uhm…you know I’ve been doing well for long enough now that I can look on it like without all the feelings of like shame and…you know the initial regret you feel when you slip up like that. And now I look at it pretty much as like part of…part of the process. Uhm…you know and stuff that I’ve like learned a lot from. For me it’s been like an incredibly necessary part of like getting to where I am now…uhm and you know I don’t so much look at it like you know when I’m on drugs -I’m in trouble, and if I’m off drugs – I’m well. That is (emphasis) the case but it’s kind of being the case of like working on myself and confronting myself and uhm drugs were involved with that and relapse was involved with that…uhm but yeah like it’s all part of the process. It’s not something that I regret necessarily cuz it all needed to happen uhm…you know to get to where I am now. Uhm you know some people they get clean and they don’t relapse. That is also possible. But many people do as I’m sure you know uhm…and so yeah…I I look at it as something I learned a lot from.\n\nInterviewer: Yes. I love your positive outlook on this. I was actually going to ask you how has this experience changed how you view yourself? Has it made a difference in how you see yourself?\nUser:\nYeah (rolls cigarette) I think it’s been positive learning but also negative….I mean I don’t know if I’d look at it in like that positive or negative frame I try not to think things…I used to think more like black and white you know and I think that’s part of it…it’s kinda like I’m using or I’m not…uhm I think I’ve the time you have…I mean in hindsight you can see things in a more non-binary way uhm…..but yeah I think like in terms of like self-esteem I think like…obviously addiction can really damage a person’s self-esteem uhm and I think relapse is a big part of that. Because like…if you’re spending so much like energy telling yourself that you’re gonna stop doing something uhm and then you find yourself doing it again…uhm like the accumulative effect of that over time is like I think really damaging on…on my (emphasis) self-esteem anyway. And I think uhm it has definitely had an effect. And even in like a subconscious way where it’s like you just…it’s like you can’t fully trust yourself cuz like you know part of you has told yourself ‘you’re never gonna do that again that’s the way’ and then something over rails that and does it and I guess you confuse yourself in a way…and it becomes hard to like trust yourself. And yet like over the time I think the more that happens you kind of sort of trust your gut instinct and your inner feeling …uhm as a result of that. Because you’ve made these what you could call decisions, that have led to sort of those outcomes that you associate negative…uhm yeah and I think recovery for me has been a big part has been to trust my inner feeling again and that it’s not always wrong. Actually, it’s something I always need to like listen to. Uhm and like mindfulness and meditation has helped a lot with that. But I think a lot of people find themselves like…after like relapsing and stuff it’s like ‘I can’t trust myself’…my inner feeling is bad you know there is something bad about it. It’s wrong. It’s broken. Uhm…and so that has affected me for sure. I think my self-esteem has taken quite a long time uhm…it’s a slow-moving thing. But at the same time like, I’m definitely in some ways a better person for it as well cuz I’ve learned a lot about myself yeah…just those extremes…going through those extremes. It’s definitely taught me a lot uhm…I think like I’m more compassionate and kinder….partly as a result of relapse and going through those extreme sort of times…uhm definitely a big lesson like how quickly things can change….and being grateful you know for the good times. Uhm…yeah, it’s taught me a lot really. Uhm so yeah there’s good and bad. But overall, I would say it’s been a learning experience…you know it’s kind of a cheesy saying like ‘what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’ but I think that’s pretty true like….in many ways.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. It sounds like you had a period of time where your trust was broken over and over again and you became calloused to yourself where you had a part in you saying – oh you are going to using again anyways and another part says – I know I can do this I can stop using. So, you have had this internal struggle of those two sides in you. So of course, it might seem like you are out of control and not trusting yourself. And then I love how you said that you grew in compassion towards it…like you are not too rigid in that it’s either not using or using…you grew more in compassion to the process saying that whatever happens, happens it’s not good or bad it’s all valuable.\nUser:\nYeah for sure. And learning to be kind to yourself and uhm… kinda mentioned that…you know if you are addicted to something like heroin there’s also something quite like natural about that because your mind is telling your body that it needs it as much as it needs food and water you know…and so like unless you make certain changes you know 9 times out of 10 you’re gonna keep slipping up. So, it’s taught me how to be like be kinder to myself and make things easier for myself instead of blaming myself and putting it down to just like being deficient in my will power. Initially you know it was like ‘I don’t have enough will power to stop’ and it’s about realizing and stepping back from that and we are all like weak in certain ways and you’ve got to make other changes you know. It’s not just coming from this place of will power. Yeah so big lessons to learn for me and it’s helped me in other areas.\n\nInterviewer: Right. So, would you say that your family or friends have seen a difference in you with all of your relapse experiences?\nUser:\nYeah definitely and they told me as much. Especially my family who…you know I never really told them about my addiction and stuff…uhm for a really long time but then when I moved back to SW, I sort of told them everything. I was like you know ‘I need some help’ basically and moved back in with them and…uhm and very kindly they wanted to help, and they wanted to listen and understand and…you know I was very lucky in that respect. And so, they’ve seen a lot of a lot of the stages of it. Uhm and I definitely…being on a journey of learning as well so it’s a difficult thing isn’t it for friends and family of someone with addictions…because it seems totally rational and it kind of overrides relationships and various things. Yeah, they’ve definitely seen like…and they’ve said that to me as well especially my dad who said that he feels like I’m kinder you know in recent times. Which was good thing to hear you know. Yeah and friends as well for sure they’ve noticed a change in me. Uhm generally I think I’m more kind of open…uhm it’s been a big ole lesson in how dependent I am on like other people uhm…whereas before I was very much like...uhm you know self-consumed and…very much kind of feeling like…I just wasn’t like letting anyone in with what was going on with me and so it’s been a process of learning to opening up and people have noticed that yeah.\nInterviewer: Wow that is incredibly important to learn yeah. I guess going back to your relapse experiences, can you tell me how you felt when you were about to relapse? Or even after you relapsed? Did you have any particular thoughts perhaps?\nUser:\nYeah so, they are all a bit different, but they all have different things in common for sure. And so uhm….yeah I mean...I’m just thinking of like which one to go with you know cuz…I guess like one of the biggest ones that I’ve had was when I was like in a dry house…you know there’s a place called XXXX from a drug service. Yeah that was a big one because I’d been clean for a while…I mean not ages but I’ve gone in there like...done a detox and then...had done like 5 or 6 weeks in there…yeah it was a nice place to live and I was around other people in recovery. And yeah it was kinda difficult in that it was like getting a lot of cravings. Uhm so speaking in terms of the obvious uhm…you know there is obviously a strong physical element to it. So, the withdrawal lasts a while and takes a pretty long time to….and so yeah like…you know there’s that physical sensation if like…of lack you know. Of like incompleteness. Which is a real strong sense with the opiates you know that real sense that you are missing something…uhm and it’s quite a big question because it’s like…you know my drug use has been linked like with other issues within myself. And you know…a big one is sort of like uhm since you know quite young childhood, I had issues with basically like an eating disorder. Which took a long time to understand because it was like you know uhm…around sort of like 12, 13 I started not eating. And I didn’t know why I was doing it at the time. I wasn’t like an overweight kid…uhm you know it was something that just felt like the right thing to do at the time. Again, that’s something I learned over the years that it was kind of a control thing you know I was looking to regulate something to make me feel better about other things. A coping mechanism you know. And that’s been a big part of like relapse for me…because it’s been something I had worked on for a long time and you know it’s not the only reason why I’ve gone into drugs, but it was definitely a contributing factor. And certain drugs would help me with that and basically you know I wouldn’t need to deal with it…it would sort of level me out and learning to escape that whole framework of thinking…and of punishment uhm…and so yeah like many of my relapses have been a result of like getting clean and then getting all that stuff come back and be struggling with that and then get to a point where I’m feeling so bad about myself that uhm…you know relapsing on heroin seems like the lesser of two evils. So that relapse in the dry house was a big part of it you know uhm…yeah, I’ve also struggled with like gambling addiction. And, that I had a slip up with that as well in the dry house...which kind of again was a contributing factor. So, I started like feeling very low and uhm you know over the course of weeks it sort of like suddenly the thought of using drug again seems like the lesser of two evils it can be that kind of clear cut …..where it’s like as much as I wanna do this, I feel compelled to do it. Uhm so there’s the physical kinda dependency and all the physical feelings and then there’s also the mental sort of turmoil…and you know struggling to face up to other issues. Yeah so there’s a lot to it I guess and there’s always sort of a web of reasons…uhm and that’s yeah one example but I’ve had other relapses where it was more straightforward where I’ve drunk a lot of alcohol and then got in a bit of a dark place and then it’s loaded my inhibitions to a point where things happen uhm…you relapse so…yeah again there’s quite a few different times and each time is slightly different…but those were key things for me.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah so since these experiences were so different would you say that uhm there’s some overall change that you might have noticed in how it’s happening? You are now very compassionate towards it but was there any difference between how you experienced your first few relapses to your, let’s say 6th, 7th or 8th relapse?\nUser:\nYeah, I would say so. For a few reasons. Uhm I think like since being in recovery and being around people in recovery and having a lot of those things in my head, you know a lot of ideas and goals….it gets harder to relapse because if you’ve got a head full of recovery, it can really like….so they say this in NA, I’ve done some of the 12 step stuff and they say you know ‘if you get your head full of recovery then it ruins your using’ uhm…you know because yeah like the guilt and the shame is more because you worked so hard to get to that point…uhm and it can be a dangerous thing because uhm…you know you worked so hard at something and then you feel like you messed it up….you know they call it like ‘hit the f*** it button’ you know it’s like just everything is wasted so might as well go…..yeah you know that’s more in the past. Lately it’s changed in that the last couple of slipups I’ve had have been sort of isolated so it’s been like one night and one occasion and then I’ve woken up the next day and you know…just being very sure that I want to continue with recovery and put that behind me again whereas in the past if I relapsed I would then end up again using for months.\n\nInterviewer: Right ok, so yeah you are in a different mindset now that is almost protecting you now. So, if you had to describe what relapse means to you, what would you say? What comes to mind?\nUser:\nWell, it’s like sort of chaos. Uhm you know it’s like uhm……yeah it’s like going into a different place you know…and kinda like you know when you are a kid and you have a bad dream or something and then you wake up and you’re kind of in your home, but everything feels a bit different. It’s kinda like that you know all the…uhm...it’s like you’re going from a stable, familiar place to like a chaotic place. Uhm which can also be like familiar but…more recently it flies in the face of like everything I’ve been working on. So yeah, I guess dark like it’s a dark place uhm and yeah…dark and difficult and unpleasant and confusing and yeah. Going from somewhere calm into somewhere chaotic that’s how I would summarize it.\n\nInterviewer: Interesting yeah. Would you say that…having gone through these relapse experience uhm how did you feel going back to treatment or back to recovery?\nUser:\nYeah like uhm…I guess there’s always like uhm a sense of relief to…yeah to feel like stable again. And also, gratitude for you know…for how forgiving and patient a lot of the services are like drug service you know and other people in recovery there’s always that real acceptance. Which is you know a big part of recovery is meeting people who have done the same things. When you’re on your own it’s just so easy to like uhm…you know hate yourself for it and give yourself a really hard time for it but then being around other people and like recovery and the services…yeh there’s that acceptance of you and that relief to feel like ‘ok, I don’t have to go down that road again’….uhm but also you know like the more difficult feelings like confused…uhm when you open that door again it takes a little while to close it even if you are back in recovery and around services it’s still that way…once you opened that door, for a little while, it can seem quite even to do it again cuz kinda like I mentioned before like you being clean for a long time and then you relapsed so you’re like ‘oh I’m back here again’ yeah…there’s that little part of you that thinks you could go back to that place. Uhm because there are you know as as bad a thing it is on a whole, there are positives to using. You know it does provide like obviously in some ways it functions as something that helps you in some ways…that’s I guess why it happens uhm…so yeah yeah it reminds you of all of that. Takes a little while to find your feet again.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah of course. So, would you say there’s kind of some confidence arising in you having witnessed that you have relapsed and yet you have gotten yourself back to recovery? Kind of that confidence of like ‘yeah I have done it before so I can do it again and all will be well again’ would you say that little confidence might be involved?\nUser:\nSo, like the confidence of knowing that you used and slip up but then get back on your feet? Well yeah like…uhm but I think there’s also danger in knowing that you are capable of uhm…you know in bit more recent times I’ve been able to relapse for one night and then get back on track again…uhm as confidence boosting as that is there’s also that danger of knowing that that’s possible….so that can actually make the idea of using drugs also quite appealing because you think ‘oh I’ve managed to rectify things in the past quite quickly’…yeah.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah right. Ok that’s super interesting. You seem to be very reflective and aware of your internal processes…awesome. Now I’m gonna ask a bit about the impact of relapse on your recovery. What effects would you say did the numbers of your relapses have on your redo very?\nUser:\nYeah sure…..well like I guess as I’ve mentioned it’s always like a learning experience uhm…and the old saying like ‘doing the same thing expecting different results’ you know you hear that a lot in recovery and…you know it’s true. Every time you relapse you have to think about why did that happen and yeah like I’m always thinking about that a lot you know because it’s like it helps to be able to think why did that happen and what can I change? To keep your mind busy because it you just look at it like ‘why has this happened? How could this have happened? Then it’s quite…you know at times where I have been like that, I continued to use you know because you feel kinda defeated. Yeah, it’s sort of tweaking things…you know it happened and it’s ok it happened and what can I do differently uhm…but then yeah like it can really rock your confidence. It can have effects on practical things like where you live, people around you like relationships…obviously all gets very damaged by repeated relapse and people only have so much patience you know even people that care about you most uhm…and so you know all of that is going on in your head as well you’re feeling bad…(mimics frustration) sort of guilty and ashamed cuz you know how it affects other people. Yeah, I guess maybe the more hopeful uhm learning aspects of it take a little bit longer to kick in and initially it’s a lot of negative feelings you know it shakes your confidence.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah so you said it took you a while to get to that point of wanting to learn from it…how did you make that shift? Has that to do with the number of times it happened or how did you make that shift in your mindset? \nUser:\nYeah I think repeated times and getting to like some bad places….all of that kind of ‘I need to change otherwise I’m going in a really bad direction’ and I’ve also had some help from other people so….uhm I had like one really key thing was like when I was back in CE you know using a lot and staying on a friend’s floor…not in a good way….uhm I had like a job at the time handing out flyers for like a nightclub…..so I was just out on my own with my bag actually full of flyers and I’ve had a lot of freedom…and there was this guy that worked for the nightclub…he was like the accountant. He was just this lovely guy…he didn’t know me very well but like we would always have a chat you know and…he advanced me a bit of money a few times for my wages so I think he knew that I was in trouble….yeah but very sweet man. So long story short I was in a bit of a rock bottom you know…I owed a dealer quite a lot of money and I’d been paid and I went to like trying to gamble the money to make enough to pay him back and score more drugs you know and I lost all the money…this happened many times I mean the whole gambling thing is kinda another story but it has worked with drug addiction uhm…and yeah like I…it was one of those rock bottoms where I was very desperate and in a very bad place and I actually called him up….uhm partly to ask him if I could borrow some money but like in hindsight uhm I actually just really wanted to talk to him because I knew I could, even though I had not actually told him about my addiction it just always felt that way with him that I could talk to him about stuff. Yeah, I ended up going to see him and sat down and spoke to him for like an hour and that was a really important part of my sort of journey because he was very straight up with me and he basically convinced me to come out of CE and come clean with my family and really start trying to do something. Up to that point it was like unthinkable for me to do that…you know to come back to SW to tell my family about everything uhm….it was unthinkable you know I was just doing my thing. And I knew that I was in trouble I knew the way that I was living that I wouldn’t get far…but he kinda was just like totally underlined that for me you know and he really made me see that I wasn’t gonna see 30 years old if I carried on that way. Uhm and he kind of convinced me you know and after speaking to him the idea of carrying on as I had been seemed like…uhm the worse of two evils. The thought of coming back to SW and the idea of coming clean with my family that seemed like you know….it was really difficult, but it was like, I was like there’s no way I could do that. But after speaking to him it seemed like the lesser of two difficult options uhm…and so yeah, I’m rambling a bit.\n\nInterviewer: No, you are doing good. I just asked you about what effects your relapse had on your recovery and then you described how you made that shift from ‘this is now the move forward’ so it is so interesting to hear that it was a person from the outside encouraging you…and all of the sudden like your whole world opens up and you started to think ‘oh I can actually do that’.\nUser:\nYeah and it’s not like I hadn’t been trying…I had already gone on a script like a Subutex script so I had been trying for a while…I had been to like a gambling addiction clinic but uhm it was all kind of like….I hadn’t made the right changes. I was kinda scratching the surface and I still haven’t been very honest with everyone about where I was at…so yeah in terms of these shifts that was a big moment and he didn’t want me to thank him or anything but like he had such an impact on my life you know when someone just comes to you, they don’t owe you anything but they really set your life in different direction uhm…so that was a big one. And also, like other people in recovery since being back in in SW so…changes in my own mind and having that deep sense of like the will to like change and that kind of survival instinct that we all have, but I also had help from other people. Without that I definitely think I wouldn’t have had enough to change I think it’s been bigger than I am and that was a process of understanding that…so yeah, I had a lot of help from so many people as well.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah of course. Awesome. Would you say that you look at recovery differently? If you had to describe recovery? Or what it means to you after having had these relapse experiences what would you say?\nUser:\nYeah well, as I was saying it’s like uhm confronting and dealing with the parts within yourself and of your life that leads you to using drug uhm in the first place…it’s more that than just stopping to take drugs you know.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that…what have you learned from relapse? You already said quite a lot about that…you learned a lot about yourself and becoming more aware within yourself but is there anything you would’ve done differently or you wished you had known that you know now when you were going through relapse?\nUser:\nUhm well something that I know now and didn’t know then and was struggling to believe then, was how much things can change. And how like the obsession to use drugs, you know that real obsession and feeling that it’s something you need, that that can change. Now I go weeks without even thinking of using and I catch myself you know I actually haven’t thought about heroin or cocaine for quite a while…I think that’s something hard to believe when back there…it seemed like an impossible task uhm…but yeah that is something that, being around other people who are doing the same thing that you’re trying to do, helps that. You know it’s hard to refute that much evidence if you are around that all the time. I think the longer you are around people who have what you want, I think the more you start believing that it’s possible. Generally, and possible for you…yeah. I wish I like learned about mindfulness and meditation earlier on…I mean I kinda wish I learned that as a kid you know because a lot of addiction and the problems that lead into it they are living in your head and in your thoughts you know…yeah like a big part of meditation is to realize that you don’t have to believe everything you think…like I wish I had learned that a long time ago. So many problems are caused by having a bad relationship with thinking uhm…and I definitely have had a bad relationship with my thinking. And that is something that drug service do…I actually do one of those groups now. The first group I ever went to at drug service was a mindfulness group. Yeah so it was a while until I started to do it more seriously in my own time…but yeah. So, I think those groups also had an impact on me. I was involved with a clinic in CE when I got on a Subutex script and that was very different……they had lots of people coming through the door, so it was very much like you went in, had your appointment and then left. You know and a lot of places don’t have resources…but for example drug service has a garden and a place where people can hang out…yeah. Does that answer your question?\n\nInterviewer: Yeah so I guess for you it was a mixture of the support from other people who encourage you that what you want is possible…and also having the mindfulness work and having a better relationship with your thoughts. So, you are working on your core beliefs and for you it’s learning to understand that I don’t need to believe that I am worthless, even if I feel like it’ so it’s interesting for me that this has been your experience. To learn to think well and healthily and having that support from others. That’s really good.\nSo, I’ve got one more question:\nOn a day-to day basis, how do you manage recovery or how do you protect yourself from relapse now? And has this kinda changed since the number of relapses you’ve had?\nUser:\nUhm yeah so…there’s definitely things that I do and things that I’ve learned. I think a really big one of those is like routine…uhm having structure and whatever else is going on these are things `I do every day. That can be as small as like waking up and having a cup of coffee in the morning. Because before recovery I didn’t have any like…yeah, I’d have times in my life where I had routines with my drugs and different stuff but in terms of like my own self and my own space…there was no regularity to it. And you know there were reasons for that like being in different mental states you know struggling with my issues…yeah like building in sort of routine uhm and repetition you know….so waking up, having a coffee and then meditate or something. So, I got like into running as well…about 3 years ago…so when I came back to SW…and I just did my first half-marathon actually 2 days ago…which was a big achievement.\n\nInterviewer: Oh amazing congratulations that is a big achievement yeah!!!\nUser:\nYeah it felt good because I’ve been working at it for a long time…but that’s been a huge part of me getting clean. And I really kept it up like for a long time it was every day…now it’s more spread out. So yeah those are some examples of the routines so for the last 2 years it’s like uhm…every day I like meditate, I do Spanish lessons on Duo Lingo. Yeah there are small things but like they’ve been a huge part in all of this for me that routine. I do push ups every morning uhm…and I just don’t think those things can be understated. It’s symbolic you know. It’s a pretty big part of it is getting the small things right so yeah…uhm that stuff like is the first thing I would say. The social side of things is a big one. I never spent like a whole day at home alone…obviously the last few months have been a bit more difficult but used to spent days on my own inside when I was depressed or using…and I never do that anymore. And even some times, when I want to do that I just know that I can’t do that you know it leads to bad places…so quite a practical thing. Yeah, those things that come to me. For sure. And the importance of being connected to other people uhm and yeah really maintaining those relationships. They are all just layers of protection. I also make sure that I don’t have too much money around uhm….and I’m pretty disciplined with that…I don’t have much money but if I have more than I need for a week or two….you know sometimes I send money to my dad and ask him to look after it for me. So those basic practical things are all important…yeah, I like spending time in nature around green stuff. That’s been a big part of me too. I’ve always liked being outside, but I don’t think I realized how much I needed to be outside around stuff so yeah.\n\nInterviewer: Yeah so would you say this has shifted with the number of relapsed you’ve had or was it always the same?\nUser:\nUhm yeah it has shifted like slowly I’ve built my wall of protection of these things in uhm…the last couple years you know running and meditating they’ve been in there and they’ve not gone away. But yeah with every relapse I’ve learned a bit more and sometimes it took a bit of time to understand what I needed to do differently but yeah it has changed each time.\n\nInterviewer: Awesome, yeah so is there anything about your experience that you haven’t yet said or feel is important for people to know?\nUser:\nYeah I mean…uhm I think uhm…something I guess I’d say to others is like…I do believe…I mean I guess you could say this about other things as well but like, addiction sort of backs you into a corner and it forces you to like deal with yourself and confront yourself and turn over all the stones. And for me, I really believe that there’s such a like potential blessing in that if you can get into recovery and can get clean I think you can become a more kinder person and more rounded person than perhaps you ever could’ve been if you hadn’t have gone through that. So, I like really see that positive in there. People find that in lots of different ways and it’s not saying that people who haven’t gone through that can’t self-actualize. But I think in a way it can sort of forced you to deal with yourself in a way that perhaps…otherwise you wouldn’t. Potentially you could live a much better life than you could have if you hadn’t been forced to really take a look at yourself. So yeah, I guess that’s a positive note to end on.\n",
  "Transcript_Jonathan.txt": "Interviewer: So how about you walk me through some of your experiences. You can choose whatever you want to share, but to give me some history of your drug use in your life and your relapse experiences. \nUser:\nWow [laughs], ehm ok...I so so five years ago, I went to treatment centre...I've been battling addiction my whole life and I started alcohol probably when I was probably 11, you know, that sort of just progressed into weed, ecstasy, speed, MDMA, Coke, crack, you know how it goes, and sleeping tablets to try and bring me down. When I was trying to give something up, I would swap my substance in order to try and get off the other substance, which I know sounds really crazy too like a normal person is like, well, I take one substance and I'll use another substance to get off the first substance. And then you're addicted to that substance and then, you know, so the spiral continues. But my longest period that I've remained clean is three years and two months. And that was after my first visit to treatment centre. This is my second time to treatment centre and yeah...the relapse that...I was in a really great place and very strong emotionally and spiritually strong. And I was actually so enthralled by what treatment centre does that I went back to [location] because my kids went back there and they're young, you see, they're now 13 and 12. But this was five years ago...and they were obviously younger then. So, I was so taken with how treatment centre help people get their lives back on track and how the people they can look past the years of pain and abuse and kind of uncover that gleaming diamond that's within everybody and show them that, you know. And I went to open a rehab in [location], and I did it off grid. So, no electricity, no municipal services, no... ehm I bought my own septic tank sewerage system, I pumped water, I bought the ablutions, the toilet and the shower and the sink and all that. And I used solar energy for lighting, and I used gas for cooking. And I took people, and I was in the bush totally off grid in the middle of nowhere. And I kind of tried to model it on treatment centre's system that they have...a holistic approach to work and improving self-worth and trying to build these sustainable eco, off-grid dwellings to show people that they do not need to have a mortgage over their head, that they can build in partnership with the Earth and almost in a in a in a recovery sense, we were using old tires and old clothes thrown away. There's a guy in the states called Michael Reynolds, and he runs Earth shook by a picture, and he started doing this in the 70s and I thought, well, you know, the ethics of society and stuff kind of put to one side. And I thought to show people self-worth, you know, using stuff that's been discarded by society, like the tires and the buckles ehm that, that they could sort of rebuild their lives that way. But I took on too much. \n\nAnd recovery is it can be a very dark energy. Getting to terms with your past and all of that kind of stuff comes up to the surface. And I had a few people there and I found it very difficult. And just trying to do it by myself, obviously, with hindsight, coming fresh out of rehab to build another rehab [laughs] but like so I don't take it as a failure, but I recognise that I need to ask for help. But anyway, I relapsed and obviously the relapse happens in the mind way before I pick up a substance...and but also, I was quite I was quite tense because the political situation in [location] is fairly violent and where I was living off grid, like I was robbed three times and my neighbours across the valley, they were older, like 60s, and they got hammered with hammers, you know, in a violent attack. And it made me really paranoid. I started carrying my gun on me. And then I couldn't sleep, you know, in this house I built out of wood wooden structure ehm blocking...the wood moves, you see, you could hear the creeks and stuff at night. And you've got to be really aware where I was. And basically, I got paranoid, I couldn't sleep, and I went and got some sleeping tablets. I said to my doctor, I'm not sleeping. And I convinced myself that the sleeping tablets were just for sleep. And there was an element of truth to that because I couldn't sleep. But once I started taking one sleeping tablets per night, I really liked the buzz. And it takes me out of my own perspective on life and my view of myself, of my self-worth and low self-esteem, that having a substance in my body, a chemical substance, puts me at ease. And I started taking more and more of these tablets. And so, I had a girlfriend at the time, and she was also in recovery. And that was a very enlightening relationship, very aware of the relationship, probably the most spiritually aware relationship I've ever had. And when we strong, when we were strong, it would feed off positive energy from each other. But things took their toll. And we decided one day to try a substance called GBH, which is like liquid...I don't know what it is. But anyway, and that led to a full-blown relapse for me because from the GBH or from GHB, sorry, it ehm I went straight back onto the coke and the crack and things deteriorated quite rapidly from there. \n\n\nInterviewer: All right. So the questions I'm going to be asking now are more about your experience of relapse. So, what did it feel like to you when you were relapsing? And how did you feel?\nUser:\nSo, when I was relapsing before I picked up a substance, I knew I was going to relapse. So, it's a very strange place to be in, in my mind, because I needed to escape what I was feeling at the time. I was feeling low self-worth, low self-esteem, anxiety. Just anyway, that kind of encompasses what I was feeling and then I made sure to look at the calendar on my phone and work out how long I've been clean for. And that was three months. That's three years, two months and two days, I think. And I was thinking, 'wow, I'm about to throw all of that out the window now', but I can't see any hope of how I'm going to change my situation so I can't stand feeling how I'm feeling. So, I know it's a bad idea. However, I'm going to still carry on and go through with it. And it started that I would convince myself that I would just, you know, buy a bottle of vodka just to take the edge off. And when I had given myself permission to do that, justified why I needed to do that, it felt terrible. But then very quickly, the alcohol, the feeling that the alcohol gives me kind of just pushed that feeling to one side, which is exactly the point of why I was taking it, because I wanted those feelings gone. I wanted them out of my mind. I didn't want to keep on turning over in my head. What was I going to was I'm not going to what are the impacts going to be? What are the implications going to be? I'm not going to be able to see my kids, but I convinced myself that I'll be able to hide it...because I see my kids every second weekend and picking them up one day during the week from school. And I just convinced myself that I would be able to control, that this time I would be, it would be different, this time it would be, I have the self-discipline to be able to control my substance abuse. And obviously that never happened because very quickly I was back on the Coke, back on the crack, going to all different doctors, getting prescriptions for sleeping tablets, manipulating people in order to get sleeping tablets, you know, so it felt terrible. You know, I felt it's a really terrible place to be and yeah. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with me. How do you feel about having relapsed so many times in your life? \nUser:\nWell, it's difficult knowing that before I started going into the rooms of AA and NA and even whilst I was in the rooms in the beginning days of AA and NA, I would be a prolific relapser, I would go into the rooms and I'd say, 'hi, my name is Jonathan, I'm an addict. I've got one day, one day clean or just for today or I had no days clean' and I felt really...it really impacted on my confidence and my self-worth. And I feel that being almost being like a professional relapser in the past has sometimes I try and project forward and think, 'well, is this the way it's going to be for the rest of my life? Am I going to be constantly doing okay for a period of time?' ...having some life event or having a sequence of life events that cause me to relapse and then start again. So, it's a very difficult feeling to try and to try and shake, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah. There's almost like this a healthy like a healthy fear or healthy respect yeah...So would you say that has going through these multiple relapse experiences, has it changed, how have you changed through it? \nUser:\nWell, it's very easy for me to get into a negative space of mind. And to think that I'll never be able to do this. And this is going to be a situation of recovery, relapse, recovery, relapse is going to affect me for the rest of my life. But I get further along the journey, more counselling, more introspective looking at myself at who I really am and what I really am, and the life experiences that have taught me to go deeper within myself and to look at my emotional blockage or my pain-body as such, that in order for me to clear the energy that [pauses] I have not dealt with successfully, if I keep working at it eventually, somehow I will be on a clear level with my energy and be able to raise my frequency or vibration in order to be rid of that...not be rid of the negative energy because it's a duality of us. We all have positive and negative energy, and it's a way for me to accept my wholeness, my negative and positive about myself, all of the different facets of myself to be able to accept well, that's me as a whole and not to resist that and not to put that stuff, try and hide that stuff away within my internal family system that I try and hide that, but so that you don't see that but I'll hide that from you and I'll pretend I'm okay. Kick that out the loop and but that's not healthy. So I need to be accepting of my past and and that's it, actually. But I actually got a tattoo. I don't know if you can see it here [shows tattoo on arm]. \n\nInterviewer: Yeah, I can! \nUser:\nSo this is what they call the [name of tattoo]. I got that after my first visit to rehab and....basically, what I thought was is it's my spiral into addiction and then on the other side, it's my spiral out of addiction and I might actually use this as my personal item...because the...you see it everywhere in nature, you see this like they sometimes call it God's fingerprint. And you see it in seashells, you see it in snails. You see it in sunflowers, you see it in cactuses. And I can't remember where I was going with this but anyways [laughs]... \n\n\nInterviewer: How does it connect to your relapse, how would you connect it to your experience? \nUser:\nSo my experience ehm by continuing to look at myself when I think I've reached as far as I'm going to get to look within myself. Some people equate it to like peeling an onion. And there's always another layer there. Yeah. And so the path of self-discovery is not linear, you know, and it's circular and the more I go, the more I see of myself. So that's how I'd relate it to my recovery. It's it's a continuous journey. I'm never going to be fixed. I'm never going to be cured. I'm never going to be recovered. And that's OK, actually, because I figured out that I used to be of a state of mind to say, well, once I've stopped drinking or stopped using, that was my goal. Stop drinking and to stop using. However, that is just a symptom of of how I medicate myself in order to block out my pain and block out my feelings and my emotions. So I've got to look at my, my trauma, my pain, my self-worth, my rage, anxiety, depression. I've got to look at all of those things within me so that I can manage my stuff and my feelings so that I don't get to the state of having to use a substance. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yeah. OK, so and the one question I have was the sleeping tablets that you took you, which ones do you remember which ones they were. \nUser:\nWell, it wasn't like a particular brand. It could have been any any sleeping tablets. But when I was in [location] ehm my last experience of relapse is that they were called Zopiclone. And that was the sort of most readily available over the countertop tablet that I could get my hands on that seemed to work for me. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK. And another question. I just came up when you said you mentioned internal family systems. Is that something that you've worked on with counselling or is this something that you this is how you see yourself? \nUser:\nThis thing that has been spoken to me through a counsellor that I found very interesting that I've looked into further because it really sort of resonated with me, you know, like I have a side that I will show you and then I'll hide the side of things I don't want to show you. And but really, that system that everybody has needs to be clear and functional. And every part of me that I'm trying to block out out of that system needs to have a voice like the secret of me, the disobedient me, the angry me, resentful me, like all of those need to have the voice in order for me to manage my life.  \n\n\nInterviewer: And yes, I love that. I'm asking because I'm actually trained in that method myself. I love it. That's how I work with my clients. So we're definitely on the same track here! OK so I love that kind of that that tattoo to that meaning of it's almost like a relapse. It's your journey is ongoing. It's ever evolving, ever learning more. And yeah, it's really fascinating. And so would you say that has have your family and friends. So I guess if I summarise this the way that you've changed the way that you've used self differently now, it's just. Is part of a journey, part of a process, and would you say that some of your family and friends have noticed a change in you since you since you relapsed? \nUser:\nWell, I'm in a different country now because I was in [location]. And I'm really lucky to have people around me that can see the value in my soul or in my being when I can't, when I've given up. And they came together and they paid for my flight to England. So my mother is in this country and, you know, I think she's she's she is now quite old. She's 82 and she's tired and she's...my father. I come from a long line of substance abuse. And my father, you know, she's had to go through it with my father and now she's going through it with me. And she thought I was fixed because they say, 'well, you've been to rehab, you should be recovered now, you know, why aren't you recovered?' You know, then I'll speak to other members of like my ex-wife. And she says, 'well, you need to make sure this time it works. You know, you need to do a good job this time'. And it's very difficult to explain that it's not like a magic wand that you can just flip the switch and ok, you're fine now and I'll see you later. It's a continuous life struggle. It's a daily acceptance of my substance addiction. And I used to actually. I used to think of myself just as an addict, just as an alcoholic, whereas now I'm learning to look at that that is just one facet of me. That's just one segment of me that I have. But I have value in other ways. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. How come you are in England? Was there like how did you make that change, if I may ask? \nUser:\nThrough and through I reached out to treatment centre from [locstion]. Because I'm still quite good friends with quite a few people there. I was able to reach out. So the guy who you interviewed, the other guy, I was on the programme with him five years ago. He is now working at the facility. And got in touch with him. And the guy who I told you about who runs the recovery cafe, good friends with him, and some other good friends of mine and they all put money in for me. I'd say like they recognised that, I didn't see it at the time. I don't remember a lot of the actual phone conversations, but people would phone me every day. Video called me like this. Talk me through my day and asked me how I'm feeling. And it's very powerful. And yeah, it's quite emotional really, because when I decided that there's no more hope. You know, they could see that that they they still had hope for me and they would phone me every time, and said 'right, we booked your ticket, if you could get to England, you could come back to the rehab and we'll help you'. So, the love that's there is is phenomenal. \n\n\nInterviewer: That's amazing. Yeah. So, um, I guess if you had to describe what relapse means to you, what would you say, like any kind of images come to mind or phrases or how, what does it mean to you? \nUser:\nI think...So the word relapse for me obviously has negative connotations because for people like me to relapse, it's it's a failure, a failure of what I'm trying to achieve. But on the other side of the coin, I have relapsed a lot. And I know because I have children, I'm trying to show them that instead of giving up hope and hanging up the boxing gloves, as it were, and that if you fall down, you've got to get up again, you know, and you have got to keep going, keep exploring the reasons why I relapse you know, that to me is trauma. I had quite a lot of trauma when I was a child. And it's learning to accept the wound might not necessarily be my fault, but it's my responsibility to heal myself. And yeah. So I don't know. It's a difficult one, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: How would you define relapse? I know if I asked you this before, but what would you count as a relapse? \nUser:\nWell, the the definition of the term relapse is to pick up a substance that you have decided to abstain from, so it's it's a breakdown of your emotional and spiritual barriers. With something to soothe myself with a chemical substance, but actually harming myself at the same time and understanding both aspects of that situation simultaneously. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, so do you, because some people say different things about. So would you say for you the way you understand relapse, it's any time you pick up again or substance after you stopped? Or is it do you believe in like a lapse or a slip up or... \nUser:\nWell, you know, a lapse. It's funny because when I started going into the rooms of AA and NA. People spoke of a relapse, and then when other people speak of a lapse, it's almost like when they said, 'oh, you can have it if you've had a lapse, but if you continue doing it, it's a relapse'. But in my head, if they say, 'oh, you've had a lapse, come back in' that's got more positive connotations to it. So therefore, in my head I said, 'ah, well, it's OK to have a lapse then so therefore I can lapse and then just come back'. And I really battled with the difference. It's only two letters. But if somebody said, oh, you've just lapsed. You're not, you're not relapsing. But for me the act is the same. You see, my aim is to stay abstinent of any substance. And if I lapse or relapse, I haven't I haven't done it but, I use the word relapse for me because I've re[emphasis]lapsed into past behaviour which I'm trying to avoid, whereas the word lapsed has more positive connotations for me. And therefore, in my head I cannot use that word because it allows me mentally to think, well, it's OK to have lapse. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So can you I'm kind of thinking back through some of those experiences, maybe walk me through maybe one of them, um, how you felt immediately before you relapsed and immediately after that kind of what was going on in your head, maybe in your body and your feelings or emotions you can think of like what is it like to have a relapse? \nUser:\nOK, so the feeling I have is I get butterflies in my stomach, I get nervous, my head starts saying to me, 'you know, you shouldn't do this. You know, it's the wrong thing to do'. But then the turmoil is that the other part of me is saying, 'well, but, you know, you need to do this to escape'. The feeling that I'm feeling and the feeling I'm feeling is is emotionally is is like a washing machine, you know, that that is on cycle 1000. And, you know, I can't stop it. So and I know that I know a really quick way of stopping it is to use a substance. But I know that the correct way of dealing with those emotions is to sit with my emotions and to communicate those feelings honestly, honestly, with somebody else who understands. So right after I relapsed, I feel when I'm taking the substance, I feel good because it's doing what it's intended, designed to do. And then when I've come down off of that substance, I feel a thousand times worse because I know that it hasn't solved my it hasn't fulfilled that...it hasn't...have you ever heard of a guy called Alan Watts? He was an English philosopher who died, I don't know, in the 70s, I think, and said 'trying to', he was talking about meditation, okay. However, I can relate it to relapse, like if I'm in a boat and there's sort of choppy water around me which are inside me in the boat and the choppy water around me is my emotions and my feelings. It's like me trying to get a paddle and try and smooth out and the paddle being a substance, using the pedal to smooth the waters of my emotions over water, you know, but it's not going to smooth it, calm the waters are just going to make it choppy you see. I don't know if that makes sense. It makes it worse. And I know that it's going to make it worse, but the desire to get out of my feelings, my emotions is very so strong that I take a substance and because I am now my neural pathways are hard wired to accept the substance really quickly and easily you know or have done historically. \n\n\nInterviewer: So how did you feel, I guess, when you when you were, you know, when you relapsed? Was there any other thought like that you carried on? I mean, I'm assuming you carried on using for a while after you used again. So, what was kind of like your you thinking or your feelings afterwards? \nUser:\nWell. I suppose this is a very elusive question that...I didn't want to use, I've relapsed, I felt good or felt not good. That's the wrong term. I felt less emotions and I felt less less pain whilst using... Then I've come down off of using, then I felt really bad. And then in order to stop feeling bad and feeling stop feeling guilty, I use again because I don't want to feel bad or guilty. So I complete the cycle with regret and words or feelings of condemnation for myself. In order to get rid of those feelings, I convince myself that I'll just use again just a little bit just to get me over this rough patch. And I can just use the substance to calm my mind and to kind of float into like float like go towards being OK whilst using. But the water's never get any smoother. I think that they're going to like I just use just to get myself on the level and not too bumpy and keep my emotions in check. But the further I go along that stream; it becomes a torrential waterfall of madness again. So I'm not sure how to...see in like the rooms [AA or NA], they say you've got to play the tape forward, you've got to remember what happened the last time, and you've got to know that it's going to have the same things going to happen again. But the mind is very baffling because. Well, the disease or habitual forming, however you want to call it, will tell you that you're gonna be okay. So my head will tell me. Like, because I'll say it to myself like 'oh remember what happened last time', and then my head will tell me, 'don't worry about last time, it's okay, this time will be different this time'. And that's the problem, I think, you know, because once this picture is flipped, I'm screwed because then I'm like, I'm off, you know. \n\nInterviewer: Mhm. Yeah. And I also I'm thinking I just you know, you obviously knowing like if you, if you think forward knowing what's going to happen or having that like thought and. Yeah I, I think I know what will happen when I play it forward that doesn't often help us, you know, doing it and preventing it. I mean it's the same if you if, you know, knowing what to do in a surgery and a heart surgery, having the head knowledge and having studied the head knowledge of, you know, medicine doesn't mean you a good heart surgeon. So it's really it's really interesting that you that you say that way. And so before I ask the next question, I meant I meant to say so you seem to be quite spiritual. So spirituality is a big part of you. Would you say something that has that always been with you or did that develop through you experiences? \nUser:\nIt developed through my experiences of being aware of myself. And you see, I always thought that being socially programmed, like everybody is, I've been taught that I am a separate entity and a separate human being with a mind and and, you know, they teach you in school may the best man win; it's a dog-eat-dog world; every man for himself; You know, and marketing of social media products, anything they say 'well, you need to have this and then you'll be OK'. And it's very clever. And I thought I was separate but...it turns out that I'm not; it turns out that that from my perspective, we are all one consciousness, you know, and I am you and you are me. And I am not this physical body, you see, this is my vessel that I walk around with in order to complete this earthly walk. But really, my mind is like a programmed computer of my experiences and my thoughts and upbringing and my ethnic background and my community and people's moral values that I've been brought up with. But if I step back and realise that everybody else has got the same issue, but but I am actually an infinite consciousness of light and love, and I am the awareness behind...what my head is telling me is just what is the mind's chattering all the time. And when I'm listening to my mind talking, then what's the thing that's listening to my head? And that's what I am. I'm that of the eternal consciousness behind that. And if I recognise that, I can view life a bit differently. So that helps me to realise that I am I am who I am right now with just with my breathe, you know. You know, so it's something that and I was brought up in a very religious upbringing and I could never resonate with that path, so and I had a very bad experience with a priest. And so I run exactly the opposite way, 180 degrees the other way. When you talk about when somebody talks about religion, Christianity, or the dogma that's associated with that. So I fall more to reincarnation Buddhist/Hinduist background and I feel comfort in that. And that that's kind of what resonates with me, you know? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, sure, it's more the eastern and eastern, not the Western kind of way. No, that's great. I'm just really. Yeah, that's really interesting. I guess so the question I'm now asking is more towards, you know, recovery and how, you know, having gone through so many different relapses, how does it make you feel - how did you feel going back into treatment? I'm assuming and you can tell me, but I'm assuming that before you went to rehab and you were in [location] and you had relapsed before, there were times where you went into treatment, I'm assuming. How did you feel then going back after having had know, 10 or more, 20 relapses? \nUser:\nSo the relapses were before I went into treatment, then I went into treatment, then I relapsed again for nine months or so, and then I went back into treatment and now I'm in recovery. So I'm abstinent except for nicotine and coffee. So but those relapses before...I was very unaware, you know, I didn't even know I was an alcoholic. I didn't even know I was a drug addict, even though I come from a long line of it, I thought, it can't be me. I was very unaware and I thought it was just me that there was something wrong with, inherently wrong with me. But since going into treatment and starting my journey, my ego tells me that I shouldn't go back into treatment because I'm going to look bad. I'm going to look like a failure. I'm going to look. Whereas the people in rehab understand that and say it's a journey. It's ok...but the people who are on the outside, the sort of normal people, they go 'wow, I don't know what to do. You've already been to rehab. So you know what's wrong with you?' you know what I mean? [laughs] \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yes, yeah. OK, so I'm going to switch over to asking more about recovery, if that's OK. So like, what would you say were the effects of your repeated relapse experiences on your recovery, like in terms of maybe motivation to go into treatment? What would you say were the effects of your relapses? How would you say it impacted on your recovery? \nUser:\nWell, with a relapse, I recognise that, I don't know what I'm doing. I can't do it by myself. And that's a funny thing. Like recovery is nobody can do it for you, but you can't do it alone. So that kind of sums it up quite nicely for me, because I realised I tried to do it by myself with the knowledge that I had at the time saying, 'OK, this time it'll be different'. But nothing, nothing is different because I'm trying to fix myself with the same head that got me into the situation I am because I've only got a certain amount of knowledge. So going into treatment, continuously relapsing and then going into treatment and then having a period of time, that for me is a very substantial period of time. For the three years be clean. Taught me that when I relapsed again, the first thing I need to do is to go back into treatment. Even though my ego tells me don't do it because of my ego is going to be bruised, but my soul understands that I can't do this alone. That it has to come from within. But there's obviously more of the onion I need to peel away because there's obviously something still missing that I don't understand. So this time in rehab, I was really worried that I thought, 'oh, I thought I went through everything last time. I don't know what I'm going to do differently this time. How is it going to be different?' And I was really worried about that. And luckily through counselling where we brought up where my counsellor brought up the sort of ACE's experiment, you know, the adverse childhood experiences, he's like, well, look, look at look at your score here. And, you know, out of ten, you know, you're scoring eight. You've had a lot of trauma in your life. And, you've got to recognise that the reptilian side of my brain, the old part of my brain, you know, I'm jumping between my parasympathetic and sympathetic system. I'm just off the chart, you know, I'm just all over because I think there's danger everywhere, so, you know, it's part of the journey. So if I'm honest with my counsellor, I discover more about myself and realise, OK, well, you know, everyone's got a cross to bear. Everyone's got problems. Life is not meant to be all unicorns and rainbows because otherwise what's the point. You know, life is for growth. And if I look at the sort of the Buddhist or Hindu principles, it's like, well, we are here to learn lessons in order to get a different perspective on that and not come out of that pain better, but to come out of that pain with growth. And, you know, at the end of the day, as souls, as people, we're all here just to walk each other home. You know, to wherever that home is. So it's a case of there's no right and wrong before walking the path. And if we can help each other along the way, then brilliant. That's all that I'm not you know, anyhow I think I went off point and I can't remember the question [laughs]. \n\n\nInterviewer: You know, it's actually really interesting to me...so if you had to describe what recovery means to you and after these experiences, what would you say? I know you've already hinted at that of like it's its growth. And would you say anything more about that or what recovery is? \nUser:\nIt's just being able to look at myself from a different perspective and to be kind to myself. You know, I don't have to...I'm not here to make my life any more difficult than the experiences I'm going to experience anyway. You know, death, separation, good, whatever that whatever the negative experiences are, you know, I don't have to impact that more by shoving a lot of chemicals down into my body. So if I can accept myself as I am with all of my flaws and fault in my family system and learn to that my experience of pain can help others on their journey. And not to get twisted about my experiences to accept them, leave them where they are, learn from them and try and move forward. That's a way of being kind to myself. And instead of thinking about poor me, poor me, you know, and then looking at the world through that lens. Well, you know, I can't save the world from all the negativity, but I can save myself from the hurt and the pain. And by saving myself, I'm going to help raise the collective consciousness of the world because by me opening my soul to show my light or vulnerability to others encourages others to show their vulnerability in order to release pain and in order to come together collectively in order to to move on, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: So there's a real sense of purpose for you in your recovery. It's like you're part of something much bigger. It's amazing. Um, yeah, would you say there's anything that you would have done knowing now about your relapse is anything you would have done differently when you were relapsing? \nUser:\nHindsight is obviously great, but I don't think. Yes, so I'm grateful that I've. I'm grateful that in my pain, I got to so much pain that it wasn't worth the pain anymore, so I had to try something different. So I'm grateful that my pain has led me to a greater understanding of myself and then thinking I had it all fine and, you know, everything's fine, and then realising that the pain takes me a lot of pain to change, you see. So when there's too much pain, then I change. So the relapse has caused me so much pain that I had to look at things differently and in a way I'm grateful that that has been my path. I don't know if I would change anything, but it's a very fine line that we walk. Because a lot of people die in this experience. Which is obviously terrible. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah. How do you manage your recovery? How do you on a day-to-day basis, how do you protect yourself from relapse. \nUser:\nI talk to people, yeah, I'm honest with people about feelings. When I got three years clean, I started thinking that I can't show people that I'm not in a good place because I'm three years clean, so, well, I must be OK. You know, people are saying, 'wow, you were such a mess, and you were such a train wreck. And now you are clean'. I have to keep that facade up, which is my ego, my false self-telling me, 'yes, you're OK'. Meanwhile, I'm dying inside, but I have to project the image that I'm OK. So what I've learnt to just to be honest, really honest you know, and that's really difficult to do. So I've got a few key people around me. I've got to look at my decisions. Each decision I make, I've got to try and make the next right decision. And if I just try to make each little decision, the next right one, it helps me for tomorrow to carry on making those right decisions because there's so many forks and branches in the road that I could make a wrong one and then make another wrong one. And then suddenly I'm in prison or dead. So and I seek counsel of others. I ask people for their opinion. I'm humble. I try to be humble. I don't get it right. I try and be willing to learn to take on another different idea. I don't get that right. So I also accept that I'm far from the finished product and that's OK. And I'm happy with that actually, because if I think I'm the finished product, that's immediately where the problems begin. I've got to remember that it's a lifelong journey. Actually, that journey can be really beautiful learning about myself. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. And it's almost like those three years that you were sober, clean, it's almost like that put even more pressure on you. So accepting that you're not finished and you're not perfect helps you keep you in that mindset of, of not you know, not adding on more pressure on having to keep up a facade of the sober you or. So that makes sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. OK, great. Um do you think much about relapse? Is it kind of in the back of your mind?\nUser:\nI do think about it. I have I have thoughts of using I have thoughts of thinking well, like not now, not now, but if I think about like yesterday, I had thoughts of of using, of saying, 'OK, well maybe this time it'll be different'. My head is telling me, 'OK, you seem to be OK now what about if you finish rehab'...because I have finished treatment but I'm in a community house in, you know, just in CE. So I'm thinking, OK, so 'I do I've done a year there, I'll do a year here and then long time forward. OK, ok. well when I'm finished here, I book a week off, I'll go and have a use up', you know, all the debauched, all the madness that goes with it. You know, because for me drugs and sex are very closely interlinked, you see. So it's very difficult because I've used so much and you know, lots of inhibitions and sex becomes a very debauched act. And so I think I can go and do that, you know, go and use and and have debauched sex. And that'll be a release, like a reward. But then what I do is I speak to my housemate who you spoke to on Saturday, and I'll speak to some other guys in the community. We went to a meeting last night and I'll speak about it there so that I'm accountable. And also, I can get it in the light, you know, I don't have to keep it in. It's quite normal to have using thoughts for whatever substance for over now 33 years. It's quite normal for me to go 'ah, I don't like this feeling or this emotion, I know what I can do, I can use' ehm or as a reward system, so if I'm honest about it to other people, it keeps me accountable. And then, if I can just do the right thing today, then tomorrow I could maybe try to do the right thing again. And then maybe by the time my year is up, I would have peeled enough layers off of the onion to realise that I don't have to do that. So it's just keeping myself around like minded people in a recovery setting, which is why the rehab works so well, because it's a lot of rehabs that that say 'well come for a 30 day rehab', you know what I mean? And then it just the cycle of pain continues. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So did that change the way that you kind of go about talking openly about your feelings and all of this to protect yourself from relapse? Did that change with the number of relapse experiences or was it always from the get-go? \nUser:\nNo no, it's only through experience. It's only through the relapsing, but it's only through coming to an institution like treatment centre in order to learn about myself, that has changed the way I protect myself from relapse. Because of the awareness. \n\n\nInterviewer: Is there anything else about your experience that you feel I need to know, or people should know anything that you may have. I have maybe missed, or you want to share more?  \nUser:\nI can't think of anything else really. I'm a specific person but yeah I think all I could say is that this kind of I know that they are looking at changing the recovery models or treating I don't like labelling people addicts, but treating people with a history of substance abuse problems due to pain and unawareness of themselves and how to sort that out. And treating that as a criminal activity to more of a mental health way of thinking. So I think what you're doing here, asking about feelings and emotions and awareness is really important. It's going to be really important for for me, for the people you are doing this for and ultimately for future people who will experience pain and try and relieve that pain through substances.  \n\n\n",
  "Transcript_Rick.txt": "Interviewer: Ok, maybe we can start with your personal item and just see where we go with that? \nUser:\nYes, this is a hoodie that I used to wear when I was homeless and begging. I've no idea where I got it from...none! I cannot remember where I got this hoodie from in any way, shape or form or even why I kept it. But I like it [laughs]. But yeah, I mean I was surprised to find...I was washing it not so long ago and surprised to find that on the inside of this bit that's on the arm [shows arm of hoodie] there's still blood stains on it and everything ehm...from when I used to inject...little bits in here. Ehm which I was surprised by you know...Yeah, it's like I say, I don't I don't know where I got this from, I've still got the trainers I had when I was homeless as well, because they were brand new when I got them. So ehm I'm not into wasting...I grew up in a family, in a house with my gran who grew up...during the Second World War when everything was rationed. So, throwing things away, that don't need throwing away is not the done thing in my family [laughs].\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah. \nUser:\nI've still got...because they were you know, they're still completely wearable, you know, they were literally brand new when I got them, and they were being thrown away. So, I've still got stuff that I still wear occasionally. So I had...when I was homeless, I don't know how I acquired it in any way, shape or form, but it, it does remind me of where I end up or where I ended up after the last one because... I mean the whole relapse thing for me ehm...I, I didn't relapse often because I was using all the time pretty much. But there were little...I had short spells a long time ago ehm...where I couldn't stay off, you know, after a few weeks ended up back on the drugs.  But the last, the last time that it happened, it was quite spectacular. And that's when I ended up being homeless, so. Yeah. I mean, everything went properly, pear shaped very quickly. So, I kind of keep that top to remind me of where I'll end up...if that happens again. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So, you still wear it? \nUser:\nYeah, occasionally. Kind of like ehm...I'm going to say a gym top type thing. And you know, at the moment I work in construction so it's even when clothes on, sort of clothes you wear out and about often you know, they can still go through this progression of being workload. So, it's got that sort of potential. It's a nice top, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So it's almost like it holds a special kind of memory of you know, this is where you ended up and you made it through, obviously, so yeah...when you wear it and you kind of think about where you were and where you are now, does that ever kind of hinder you from moving on? I'm guessing there's a sense of attachment to the item. You don't know where you got it from, but it holds a special memory?! \nUser:\nYeah, well, I mean, I'm quite...I don't know if sentimental is quite the right word...but I suppose it probably is..ehm so you know...so for instance I' ve got a shirt that I had from before I was homeless, that's been all around the world with me and it doesn't quite fit anymore. And I don't, I don't want to get rid of it [laughs]. But the good thing is it doesn't fit. It's a bit too big. So, there's always the possibility. So yeah, I do get attached to items and I think sometimes the craziness of ...so well the way my head works anyway...is that sometimes when I'm finding things a bit difficult and you start...your brain starts remembering all the good stuff...because I'm not going to lie, there were a lot of times when I was homeless where it was fun attached to it, you know, so I was homeless in CE, which is obviously quite a big university town. And, you know, being in CE on a Friday and Saturday Night, as a homeless person...could actually be quite amusing sometimes...like all of that carnage that people see on a Friday night out when they're out with their Uni mates...and, you know, I lived in that for four years [laughs]. So, some of the stuff that we saw was quite funny. I got to meet some nice people, you know, and even though it's very easy for my head to forget all of the other stuff that was going on and how difficult it was. So, you know, it's it's handy to have a reminder of a share of the evil. And you know, you can sort of wear that and remember not washing it for six months and you know, where you were at when you were wearing it, the things you were doing, do you know what I mean, and how tough that was. \n\nInterviewer: Yeah, right. So, I'm getting I'm getting this kind of word. I don't know if this fits with you, but like honour, does that kind of fit with you? \nUser:\nI mean, you know, not everyone not everyone makes it through that experience. You know, I've lost...when I was homeless those four years, I think in the last couple of years, so since I came to treatment facility and have since left, there's probably like twenty five people I know that have died in either through something like suicide or overdose or, you know, other complications, you know, liver failure stuff like that...yeah. So unfortunately, no one makes it through that. And, see to me it's just normal like because that's kind of what I did. You know, it was kind of like sort of normal to them, isn't it? But when I tell some people about, you know, I was homeless for four years, it's the reaction I get reminds me just how abnormal that is. I mean, and I don't know if I'd say there's a feeling of honour about making it through. It's an interesting way of putting it. I haven't really thought of it like that. \n\n\nInterviewer: No I mean, it might not it just it kind of just came to my mind when you said, you know, you you're wearing your or you are remembering about your sweatshirt and how, you know, all of the stuff that you've been through.\nUser:\nI suppose it's honourable if you use that experience for something good. I'm not one of these people that wants to, you know, some people and I totally respect that, some people I know that they want to put it all completely behind them and move forward. And I understand that and I respect it, you know, but for me I think the, because I've spent all of my adult life as an addict, one thing or another, if I don't try and use some of that experience, which is vast, for something good, then it's a complete waste of time. And I don't like the idea of wasting half of my life so far. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I totally get that. Yeah. So maybe share a little bit about your history of your drug use and your relapse and maybe how many times you experienced relapse? \nUser:\nSo, I mean I started I mean, how far do you want me to go back? Because it's a long way [laughs]. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. I mean, whatever you want - this is your story. So, whatever you feel like is needed for me to know. \nUser:\nAll right. Well well, I mean, I'll go as far as the substance misuse that started when I was 12, so. I was quite I've always been able to associate easier with people who are, certainly as a teenager, with people that are a bit older because...in my family, there's no one that's even remotely close to my age - everyone's either at least ten years older than me or at least ten years younger than me. So, I mean, no one even no cousins, no nothing are even remotely close to my age. So, you know, going to family events and whatever there is, it wouldn't be unusual for me to be the only child there. So, when I hit secondary school and I had the opportunity to hang around with the older kids. Not only did I feel like I fit in a bit more with them because I was really tall as a 12-year-old, I was like five foot eight. And, you know, they, you know, they were all smoking...things like hash and taking speed and drinking and all that stuff that you think it's really cool when you're a teenager. But I never really felt like I fit in with those guys because I was a lot younger than them and I used to get sort of picked on because I was the youngest, you know, but I was willingly putting myself in that position, because that was sort of what I thought I wanted to where I wanted to be. And yeah, you know, my idea of fun was going down to the local park and just getting completely smashed. \n\nBut I had...my mom was an alcoholic, so she she was at home and she wouldn't drink during the day so much that I'm aware of. She wouldn't drink excessively during the day, but in the evening, she'd be an absolute nightmare. So, I'd much rather be out of the house with my mates getting high all the time than I would being at home. So, you know, I started off just doing what teenagers do, I suppose, getting high in the park and whatever. I think by the time I was 15, I'd sort of found class A drugs, things like speed and ecstasy and things like that. By the time I was 17, I don't think I don't think there were as many class A drugs that I hadn't taken at that point, started going to raves and all the rest of it. And by the time I was 18, I think I'd sort of been introduced to heroin. And obviously that's when things went went downhill properly because I'm already long before that I ever came across that substance, I was already using it effectively because I would use as much as, you know, as often as possible, because that's that was what I enjoyed doing. I enjoyed getting as off my face as I possibly could as often as I could. But, you know, back in those early years, it it was fun. You know, a lot of people say was it was quite enjoyable. I used to do a lot of raves, things like that. But even that was a complete mess. The way I used to fund all of this was by selling it, you know, so I could...because I had all of the older friends I very quickly caught on to being the one that could get hold of stuff for the people that were my age. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK, yeah. \nUser:\nAnd you know, and so it started off being quite a small, you know, just literally getting some money off of people, getting their stuff, being able to get it cheaper. So, I bought my stuff for free. And it just might be a bit of hash or, you know, weed or speed maybe, you know, but of course that just continues and by the time I was 16, I was involved in all sorts of things that I shouldn't have been involved in at that age. Some quite serious stuff as well, to be fair, because things were looked at a little bit harsher back then. So it was, I was involved in a world that I kind of thought I wanted to be involved with. Exposed to a lot of more adult stuff than someone in that age wouldn't necessarily have been involved. You know, I used to...even at that age, I used to use with people that were in the mid-20s, you know like the older I got, the more, the easier it became to hang out with older people. And of course, they were all been exposed to a lot of other different bits and pieces. And you see that, and you think 'aha ok cool well that doesn't look as bad as everyone made it out to be, so I'll give that a go.' And that's what led me to taking heroin for the first time was a couple of my mates that I lived in a hostel with, that were good friends ehm they weren't addicted at the time. I think they both still are now. But, you know, they had a beer and it didn't look as bad as people have made out. But yeah, but in the end, I ended up being addicted because I was sort of reintroduced to it a year or so later. So eventually I ended up doing exactly what I knew how to do, which was to sell that to get mine for free. So, I worked for this guy and I think by the time I got to that point, so I got put in prison when I was 21. By the time I got to that point, I'd had a couple of attempts of getting off the stuff. But I didn't really understand what recovery was in any way, shape or form. I just thought it was as simple as being abstinent from whatever your substance of choice was. \n\nBut I went through the whole process of rewarding myself for staying off of it by taking some [laughs]. You know, I'm going to say, you know, I wasn't really putting any effort into it. I wasn't doing what I do now. I wasn't trying to understand with recovery I wasn't trying to get into rehab or trying to go to any of the not the anonymous fellowships where I just thought you just had to stay off of it and that was enough, you know. So, I'd be on some form of substitute like methadone or Subutex or something and then. Yeah, I, I'd only last a few weeks. Let's be fair. Well on one occasion something pretty horrific happened to me. So, whilst I was attempting to get clean, I, you know, I was that bloke in my twenties, I wasn't going to listen to anyone else because I thought I knew best. But yeah, it's yeah. I had no idea what recovery was. I wasn't really trying to recover. I wasn't interested in being completely clean and sober. But I just didn't want to be a heroin addict any more, but would reward myself for that by taking heroin, you know, so I ever only lasted a few weeks, like I said. Then I went into prison and then, I mean, I couldn't even stay clean in there, you know, like, this is surprisingly easy to get a hold of drugs in prison. Yes. I had I've had a lot of support financially over the years for addiction from my family. So, I was able to bring up my mom or my gran, getting them to send some money somewhere externally outside of the prison so that I could get some whilst I was in there. It was very easy for me to get hold of drugs. So, I think the whole the whole year that I was in prison, I kind of I probably had a sum total of about two or three months where I was actually clean in there. But it's you know, it’s unfortunately drugs are very, very good way of making that time pass quicker. So, you know, and everyone else around you is using and very few people that are in there really are very interested in getting clean. So, I never lasted long. I mean, I walked out of there having not used for about six weeks I think...and then relapsed immediately as soon as I got out because I was still associating with the same people.\n\nI was on tag so for four and a half months with a thing around my ankle I had to be in at like quarter to seven. And all my mates that had come out were all using so I sort of, you know, relapsed like immediately. So, I mean, so I have been through the cycle of doing I mean, not that, but when I came out of jail, that was probably until...so I came out jail when I was 22, I think I was using pretty much every day, you know, probably every day. So up until I was in my early 30s. Yeah, it was 18 years I spent as an addict in total. Like I say, were very, very sporadic times of being clean and sober. I mean, to be fair, the two years I've been clean recently, it's probably the longest I've been without any form of substance whatsoever. So, if you include alcohol since I was a child, because it was acceptable in my family for a kid to have a beer at Christmas or to someone, someone to give you a little bit of their drink. So, I actually can't tell you how how young I was when that sort of stuff was going on. So, the last two years has been the longest. It's been the longest I've been without any form of substance since I was a very small child. \n\n\nInterviewer: Wow. That's incredible. Yeah how would you define a relapse? How do you understand what, what a relapse is? \nUser:\nWell I think what it takes most people back to the I mean a lot of people go through the whole cross-addiction they don't necessarily count those as relapses, especially if you don't understand what addiction really is. So, and I did that, I, I've got a three and a half years where I was on methadone, but I also used sporadically as a treat. But I was drinking every day, you know, so I did the whole cross-addiction thing. I think most of the time when you when, when a lot of people I know relapse. And I think, you know, it's probably true for me as well, is your own life is comfortable and it's you know, you get clean and all of a sudden your feelings are really, really, really uncomfortable because you get them all back. Sometimes it can be really, really tough to deal with them. I mean, I struggle with anxiety quite a bit. I get quite...I enjoy being around people, but I do get a little bit shy and a bit nervous in those situations sometimes apparently, I mask it relatively well. But, you know, it can be. Yeah, it's you know, it can be very difficult. I know since I've got clean, I've noticed myself being anxious about various things quite a lot, especially recently with this whole lockdown thing. So yeah, that back can be really, really difficult to deal with. And of course, as addicts, we all know exactly how to take those feelings away, like immediately. So, yeah, you know, when things when things get a bit tough, you end up going back to what you know how to do, which is use or drink or whatever whatever your choice is. And then, you know, almost immediately you become mentally dependent, if not physically dependent on it. You know, some people I know reckon that it takes them about three days to get a habit back when you take heroin. I'm not sure if that's a physical dependency that's come back at that point, but it's probably definitely a mental dependency, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. \nUser:\nYeah. So, it's it's a tough place to be. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So I wondered how so would you say that for you any time that you stopped and then gone back to using is a relapse, or is it when you actually consciously know what recovery is and then you go back to using?\nUser:\nI think I was probably both ehm...having had the sense of your having had some sort of experience in recovery now, when I look back, you know, even when or even at the time, I would have identified it as a relapse, which is not necessarily in that way...not really unless someone's, as a user, unless someone's been fully clean, ehm we don't really like defining it as a relapse with that word. But you just call it getting back on your pills. \n\n\nInterviewer: It's good to know. So how many times would you say did you have of getting back to that then? How many times? \nUser:\nProbably three or four over the years. I was I was happy for quite a long time. But the thing is, because I grew up in a house that had a lot of addiction in it and you have no other way of socialising without having a drink or using some sort of substance. And I chose not to drink so much because I didn't want to end up like my my mum or my auntie or my uncle. So, yeah, you know, I thought 'I'll take drugs because you clearly gotta do something to have fun and socialise and whatever'. So that's that's what took me down the route of taking substances rather than drinking. But then when I stopped taking substances, I ended up drinking like my mom anyway. Like exactly, but my mom. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK, yeah. So maybe you can tell me how, you know, what what does relapse feel like? Like what did you feel when you were relapsing? \nUser:\nWell, I think the times before. So the ones that happened a long time ago, I was never really interested in being completely clean, ehm you know, so the idea of taking some coke or have a drink or whatever, was still very much part of my world, but the last time that it happened like properly. So, I had 3,5 to 4 years where I was just drinking instead of using. But it was it was it was quite unsatisfying because I had the experience of what my mum was like and I knew what I was doing was exactly like my mum. I wasn't quite happy with that. So, I ended up in a situation where the drugs were very easy for me to get so the three or four years where I was really using sporadically the sort of stars had to align for that to happen. So, I'd have to be dropped off in a certain place in the town and see someone I knew that was going to score whilst I had money. That had probably happened like three times a year, maybe four times a year. So I was never really properly interested in staying completely abstinent, but then ended up pulling back on the drugs and I ended up stealing a lot of money because I was married at the time, hid the addictions from my now ex-wife the entire time we were together, which was about 10 years, and sort of sort it out, not really because I was drinking still and then using occasionally. \n\nBut I didn't have a drug addiction at the time. I ended up getting back on the drugs, having stolen thousands of pounds out because I had a lot of money from her inheritance. So, I managed to work my way through like 11 grant in three months. And yeah, I knew I was going to get caught for that...having fully relapsed and I made some horrific decisions on sort of how to deal with that. I never went home, didn't tell my ex-wife what was going on. It was horrible. It was such a dark place to be. And that's when I became homeless because ehm I was just running away. You know, I felt the need to the drugs weren't helping, you know, it never matters. And I had access to quite a lot of substances at the time because I got back into selling again like I always do...so. No amount of drugs that I was putting into my body has taken away the feelings of guilt and shame. And remorse I suppose ehm...with what I've done with my ex-wife. So, it was horrible. It was I mean, it, the last time it happened, I battled through properly suicidal thoughts for about six months. It was a very, very dark place...dealt with a lot of things really badly made some seriously bad decisions, owing people money that you don't want to owe money to, stuff like that. And then yeah, the only thing I felt like I could do was run away. So that's when I ended up living on the streets of CE. Because I didn't think that I had any other option what to do. So it took probably a couple of years of me being homeless, living in the chaos that is that world, before the, the sort of feelings and guilt and shame that subsided a bit to the point where I'd noticed, you know, so the last time I relapsed, it...it almost made me kill myself. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, OK like a very strong sense of despair. \nUser:\nAnd a lot of other feelings mixed up in that as well because I felt awful about what I had done with my ex-wife you know, she didn't deserve...she wasn't you know, I used with her occasionally, you know, so you know, she still does now, but she would do a bit of coke on a night out occasionally. But rarely, you know, it wasn't it wasn't unacceptable for her to do that. But she wouldn't do it effectively, you know. I hid my heroin addiction from her. The entire time we were together, she didn't know. She thought I got clean when I left prison, because I got religious before I went to prison. So, the entire time she thought I was clean. So, I kind of knew what I knew I'd done...living that double life broke me in the end, like properly. And of course, the addiction is always going to be well...my addiction pulled me in that direction rather than putting me where I should have been which is being honest and upfront with what was going on. It made me feel absolutely horrendous. She didn't deserve it, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: So how do you feel about having relapsed three or four times?\nUser:\nEhm I wish I'd ehm...suppose I'm a little bit disappointed with myself, knowing what I know now, you know, like the...because I never really...it's one of those things that if I knew now or if I had only then known what I know now, I'd have done things very differently in hindsight. And it it does make me feel a little bit disappointed that I've done, you know, so many years in my life with this stuff. Like heavily affecting everything I've ever done...so this is part of the reason why I do some stuff I do because there's nothing saying that I can't use those experiences and use them for something good. But I think I'm going to reach a point where I forgive myself, which I haven't done yet. I need to use that stuff for something for something good. You know, I can't I can't help, you know, my addiction and the selling drugs and the things caused me to be involved in some horrific stuff. I have also been the victim of some quite horrific stuff, but it was, you know, the addiction that put me in those places every single time, you know, and it's quite painful, all that sort of stuff. So, if I think if I don't use those experiences for something good, they could just be a little bit of a waste of time. And I think I think I'll be even more angry with myself if I didn't try and use some of that stuff for good. It's the only education I've got, you know, I never really tried at school. That's you know, it makes me feel really sad when I think about it and angry at times. Disappointed. Frustrated. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, of course. So, has going through three or four relapses changed the way that you see yourself?\nUser:\nEhm...I think the last one has kind of shown me what what I'm capable of taking. Just being homeless for years is a tough experience. You know, I don't view myself as being a particularly tough person. I think my my view of myself is always quite negative. So, you know, generally whenever I bother to compare myself to people, I'm always looking at them and thinking that they're doing better than me. Doesn't really matter where they are...so if I'm comparing myself with someone else who's in recovery, I'll be going, 'oh, I wish I was at that point, but I don't have as much clean time as them' you know, so self-acceptance is quite difficult for me. But yeah, it's it's definitely opened my eyes so having been clean now for a couple of years, it's definitely opened up my eyes to probably why I relapse on the occasions that it happened, because dealing with feelings is really difficult for me and I never really knew that was the case before. So then of course, you know, I try and spend time looking into where these feelings are coming from...which of course, I've never done before. I wanna avoid, I wanna avoid relapsing again. Because I know where my head went the last time it happened and it's really, really scary like really very scary. I don't want to end up homeless again and I don't want to feel the way that I felt because it was horrific. \n\n\nInterviewer: So did you, would you say that the way that you kind of saw yourself maybe the first time using, would you still say it's more of a negative kind of view you have on yourself or has it changed since then? \nUser:\nI still got quite a negative view of myself. The ehm...but before I don't think I tried to, I think I was probably, one of the things I was trying to avoid was, the way that thought process was, because I've never really felt like I fit in, you know, like there are so many so many things in my past that were a bit abnormal. So, I was born virtually deaf in one ear and almost all deaf in the other. So, when I was young at nursery ehm just being me wasn't enough because one of the people that worked there were talking to me behind me and I couldn't hear them, so I'd get in trouble just for doing nothing. You know, things like that. So, I don't really remember that. But there are quite a few stories in my family about that sort of thing, you know? Then I grew up in a house without my dad. My mom was only 19 when she had me. I don't know where my dad is. So then at school, everyone else has got families and whatever. And, you know, I used to get asked by the other kids, you know, 'what happened with your dad' or whatever. And I had no answer for that you know, because I didn't know. I still don't know. So, yeah, I've always, always felt a little bit different. I think but I didn't know that at the time, so the only way that I felt like I could be at ease and comfortable with myself was to be completely off one side of something. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So, do you feel other people, like friends or family members, have seen a change in how you are since you relapsed? \nUser:\nWell, the...like I said earlier, my, a lot of my family supported me, but financially with the addiction and knowing that that's what it's for ehm, for quite some time. So, the the time when things went properly, pear shaped was the only time that I wasn't able to get financially supported and then that lead to me being homeless. So, without them, without that relapse and without being supported by my family, I wouldn't have ended up being homeless. I don't think I would've thought 'you know what, I've had enough of this.' The interesting thing is, quite a lot of people I know that I've used with, have always said to me that they don't really see that much change when I am using you know, some people get really, really horrible when they're using. It's not to say that that doesn't happen to me. It's just I think that the levels that I take it, too, aren't quite as severe as some people. And so, yeah, I mean, since since the last relapse and since I've got clean ehm...I've had people in my family telling me that they're proud of me and stuff like that, no one's ever done that in my family before because I've never done anything to make them proud. I never, never been getting into anything other than getting into like bad situations and. So, there's no, you know, it's not necessarily their fault because I've never done anything to make them proud of anything. I think it's funny, I still find it very, very difficult to deal with. I don't quite know what to do with that because it doesn't happen very often. So, you probably could say that they have seen a bit of a differences of relapse and of pain because they've done things like saying they're proud of me. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Right. So, can you just maybe walk me through exactly what you like, what you thought or how it felt right before you were relapsing or right when you were about to use again and maybe also right after? Can you kind of walk me through that experience a little bit? \nUser:\nWell, like I said before, before I'd properly relapsed on the drugs the ehm...that I had a drinking issue that was really, really unsatisfying. So, you know, it's it starts you know, generally speaking, I am sure I have been quite so dissatisfied with life. I come from a bit of a weird family. So, a lot of people in my family are successful one or two are relatively famous. So, you know, I have one side of my family that are great at everything and very successful people, very hard-working people. Then I've got another side of my family with my father where I'm being told that, you know, we're not good enough for that. You know, we can't afford things like university and that sort of stuff, so but then on that on top of that, they've also always told me how special I am, and I don't quite know why they say that sort of stuff. But there's definitely something more that I don't know about, this surrounds like my mom being pregnant and all...so ehm, the whole thing of people telling me that I'm intelligent, but we're not good enough to go to university and all this sort of stuff and you're not, you know, you don't get your head around the fact that the kind of job you're going to have aren't going to be good ones necessarily. 'You're not going to be like these people but you're really clever', you know. So, like...just kind of doing normal life became a bit unsatisfying to me, really, because I get bored quite easily because I'm not you know, I'm I'm not particularly well-educated, but I'm not unintelligent bloke. So yeah, I get bored very, very easily of things. Just stuff. Talking is about the only thing that I am developing [laughs]. So, you know, life is unsatisfying. And I sort of attempted to reach that satisfaction by using or drinking or something. So, I was drinking and that became unsatisfying. \n\nThen I had the opportunity to get hold of drugs quite easily because I was being dropped off from work by, right by someone I'd known for a long time who was having someone in there selling drugs. So, I sort of treated myself to to using because it was a treat at the time, but then I got into treating myself like two or three times a week. And then it was five times a week, you know, and then it went back into being every day. And it's because everything else that I was doing was quite unsatisfying. Ehm but it crept in slowly, not that slowly, but I do the whole thing of, 'oh, I'm just going to pop round and say hello, I haven't got money on me so I'm not going to score.' And then about half an hour after I've gone round there I find myself going up to the cash point, getting some money and coming back and scoring, even though I told myself I wasn't going to, whereas in reality what I should've done is just not going around there and I might not have done...because I lived quite far away from where I was getting dropped off. So, you know, I think even though I didn't recognise it at the time, secretly I was going round there because I wanted to use and and I was just going back to my substance of choice that I've had an issue with for a long time by that point. But when I say crept in slowly, I mean, it didn't take that long. It's just that I didn't start that process and then immediately get an addiction that...physical addiction, I would you know, it took a few, a few weeks of me using every day again. But I think I did it just because I was unsatisfied. I wasn't being a particularly good husband. Things weren't exactly moving forward any direction, because everything I've ever done until recently has always had the act of addiction in the background, you know? So, I'll be thinking of, you know, I really want to try that sort of job, but I can't do that sort of job because I might not get back until after the pharmacy closes. So, I wonder how to get my methadone, or I might not be able to score, you know, there are many, many reasons why. And also, because I've got this negative view of myself, I think I'm going out on an opportunity and I still do that. I think it was just because I was feeling really, really unsatisfied and the only form of satisfaction would be to take drugs. \n\n\nInterviewer: And then after you took drugs again, how did that feel like? \nUser:\nYou kind of know you're messing up, but you don't really care. Like I say I've not been fully abstinent from the drugs, but it was it was sporadic. And they do ehm in the beginning they the means that you have of...I mean, they're still at that point, there's still a lot of fun attached to them you know like, getting high with your mates still fun...when when, you know, you've got the physical addiction back and all that sort of 'oh man, I've gotta go through this every day', you know, so I've gone from doing it for fun to having to make sure that I've got something there for every day that I wake up. So if you're going to work or doing something with my ex or whatever and then try to hide all that as well, it's a really, really tough place to be...you kind of get a feeling of dread that comes with it when, you know you've got started doing that stuff again and then of course you're angry with yourself. You've got to that point again. And, yeah, especially when it's all being hidden. I didn't want, I didn't want it highlighted by anyone how much a mess I was because I knew I was a mess. So, I hid it from from a lot of people, not very good people, but I didn't feel that I wasn't being honest with myself. So, I wasn't going to be able to be honest with anyone else. I didn't realise how messed up everything was because it had become normal to me a long time before that happened, you know, like living in that way had become the way I lived for years, by that point, years and years. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, I'm I'm almost getting the sense of like that for you to, but I'm almost getting a sense of like one hides things in your family. It's not being talked about. Things are not being brought into the light. So, it makes a lot of sense that you would accept that into your adult life, you know. \nUser:\nAnd yeah, for years my mom's addiction was never spoke about. I didn't feel like I could tell anyone. I wasn't even sure how to tell anyone although I could, I wasn't even, I didn't even feel that I had permission to talk about it. So, I started noticing her drinking being really bad when I was like eight or nine, I think... she wasn't drinking often...she died recently and I was at the funeral. And my cousin was saying how she she would be around during the day but then she'd always be working at night and she always worked in a pub. So, she might have had a drinking problem long before I ever recognised it. But it got to a point where I wouldn't know what version of my mom I was getting when I walked in. But I didn't I didn't wasn't able to talk. I hid that from everyone. I hid the way that that felt. I mean, I was a teenage boy. I didn't even know how I felt about that stuff. So, and the one time I did try and bring that up with my family, no one believed me. So, I didn't bother talking about it again. And that was in my late teens. And you know, it was people in my family thought I was trying to blame my addiction on my mom. I'm quite fortunate in some respects that right from the beginning, I've always known that taking drugs has been my choice rather than blaming it on my mom, you know, I mean, I did take drugs because I didn't want to be like my mom, but I knew that it was my choice to do that. I can even remember where I made that choice. I was 12 years old when I made that choice. You know, I'm still stuck with the choice I made when I was 12 to this day. And I will continue to suffer from that choice for a very long time. Yeah it was it was all hidden and then my mom moved back into my gran's house. This is where I was living at the time. And it all got highlight then how bad it was. And yeah, it was it was quite a relief to not have to hide that anymore. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, I was going to ask how, having gone through three or four relapses or going back to using, did you feel when you went back into treatment? \nUser:\nNo this is the first rehab I've ever done. \n\nInterviewer: All right. OK, so right. So maybe you can just tell me about that one experience of how it felt like to go into treatment?\nUser:\nWhen I when I walked into treatment center on the first day, I was so scared because I didn't know I didn't know what to expect and I had no idea what I was going to do without drugs and alcohol, because that's what my entire adult life in my entire life has been centred in some way around some sort of substance use...all of my family as much as the only the only people that have got proper addictions, that I'm aware of in my family, are my mom and her brother and sister, so my aunt and uncle and all the rest of the family seem to either manage it very, very well, you know, so I'm not suggesting that they don't have cousins or whatever don't have a beer every day because they might go, I don't know. But they don't they don't have the same issues that the people in my part of the family have. So, I have no idea what I was going to do without being able to drink or use. And I was really, really, really, really scared. I think now I'm more scared of having to walk back in those doors knowing that I've messed everything up. You know, it was it was a tough experience going into especially seeing the detox there. It was a very difficult experience for me to walk, walk into that rehab because I'm quite nervous because like I said, I was fearful, quite anxious. And yeah, I was mainly afraid of what what I didn't know what was involved. But the only information I'd kind of been given about what was going to go into rehab was that it was going to be very difficult, might not be the only advice that was given. The only thing I heard [laughs] was it was going to be quite difficult. I knew it was going to be hard. I didn't know how or in what way. \n\nSo, I know that statistically speaking, most people relapse and have to redo the programme again, whatever that programme might be. So, I really don't want to do that because the last time I relapsed it almost made me kill myself. So, you know, I don't want to I don't want those feelings of letting everyone down and the guilt that comes with it and all that sort of stuff, I don't want to repeat that. So, it in some ways is in some ways especially once I was on the programme, it was quite a freeing experience. I really, you know, as difficult as it was and it was tough at times, I really enjoyed it because I never put any effort in myself at all. So, in some ways it was quite enjoyable. But since I've left, I know because I'm in one of recovery houses at the moment. So, yes, since I've left a lot of stuff has gone on, you know my mom has died ehm I've had various other things go on. It just just kind of like life stuff is difficult to deal with. And then you got to throw in the whole pandemic business as well. So, things have been really, really tough since I've been in this house. Really tough. Yeah. Dealing with those feelings and emotions can be quite difficult at times, but I don't I don't want to repeat the experience of having to walk back in there. \n\n\nInterviewer: How did you make the choice of going there? Like now I need to go into treatment... \nUser:\nIt is not a short story [smiles]. So I was homeless and I got into a friendship with someone that was quite a dangerous person to be fair and me and him fell out and this was this was I mean, the interesting thing about my being homeless is it was almost four years to the day like so I became homeless in like I think it was April 2014. And I stopped living in CE on the street in April 2018. And I've gone from CE back to my (lost connection), which is just up the road, and decided that that was crap as well. I didn't want to be there either. And I just kind of had enough of dealing with the stress and the carnage of being homeless. So that took me back to my hometown. And then things weren't quite the same there either. My gran had recently moved from CE to SWE, where the houses are a lot cheaper, like a lot cheaper. So, she had quite a bit of money kicking around. And she said to me that she would help fund my habit as soon as I agreed to go to rehab which she was going to pay for. So, I got ridiculous in the end. I really, really took the piss [smiles]...but it started off with me only I wasn't interested in going to rehab, to be honest. I was I was just interested in getting the money out of her. So ehm and I've told her this as well, so. I was kind of halfheartedly looking at all these treatment centres and whatever, and some of them were really expensive, like stupidly expensive. And they're like 'oh yeah, we only do twenty eight day detoxes here' and I'm thinking, I know because I've, I've come off of methadone before, I was like, 'there is no way that I'm going to be feeling on top of things after 28 days. No way'. And 'you're you're going to charge us 15 grant for those 28 days or whatever it was', you know. So, it was yeah. It didn't really seem like a viable option. Like I said, I was only really halfheartedly looking anyway because I just wanted to get money out of her. \n\nBut I was having to come from SWE back up to CE and I'd buy like 300-400 pounds worth of drugs, come back down to SWE to stay with her. And when those drugs went out, I'd come back up to CE, buy a lot more and came back down. So, I mean, and I was doing that, you know, going through about 500 quid like every three days. So. Yeah. And, you know, I wasn't buying this off a normal street dealer either. I was buying off from someone a bit further up the chain. So it was, you know, you were getting quite a bit for all that money. And I was moaning about my gran [smiles] having, that keeps banging on about me going to rehab with one of my friends, as I'm walking into someone's flat that I'm just about using. And he was like, 'oh, you want to check this place out?' And handed me the newsletter from treatment center, which had all their open day information on it. So, I didn't know that he'd been to rehab. Or that he'd been to treatment center. I've always been aware that there is supposed to be this rehab nearby CE somewhere, but kinda didn't really believe it because I never really heard anything about it. Or known anyone that's been there, which makes sense that I would go because apparently they didn't used to take people of like locally based, you had to be from somewhere else, you know, because some rehabs don't like people being near where they were from. So, yeah now knowing that it doesn't surprise me, but I was like 'alright I'll check this place out' because he kind of sold it to me, you know. He was like 'it's a Christian place, but not overly Christian' and that sort of stuff. So, I was like 'alright I'll check that out' and it was remarkably cheap compared to some of the other places. And it's also got one of the best success records in Europe. So, you know, and the fact that you could be there potentially for a year and possibly a year in one of the houses really appealed to me. So, you know, I was like 'alright, I'll go for an interview with them'. \n\nAnd just before I went for that interview, I had like one of these moments of clarity that you often hear people sort of talk about in recovery. I was in my like what was my bedroom that is in my gran's house, but there's no bed, I've just got like this covered type thing to lie on, literally surrounded by needles like they're everywhere. And I've got to a point where I was using so much that ehm half of what I was using would have killed people. You know, I was looking at a syringe and it wasn't like you see on the films where you could see through it. This stuff looked like coffee [emphasis] it had that much heroin in it you know. And I thought, you know, half of that could kill anyone you know, you're going to take twice as much as what would kill them. And in about ten minutes, if that doesn't kill you, you can have another one. You know, like because I was using like constantly [emphasis], because whilst I was homeless, I got like into injecting heroin and crack together. So before before I was homeless, I was only ever into smoking the two. Then I got into injecting heroin cuz smoking heroin wasn't quite doing it for me. Smoking crack or something I carried on doing. Then when I became homeless, everyone was injecting the two together. So, in the end, that's what I ended up doing. But I couldn't afford to do that whilst I was in SWE. So, I was just injecting heroin. And it was really, really unsatisfying. It was like...just not fun. So I ended up just coming to a point where, and it's weird when you when you sort of have one of these moments, you can kind of feel it, you don't just think it, it's like a feeling as well. And I was like, you just got to do something about this. You've got to try, you know, because all you're doing is killing yourself probably quite quickly because it would only take a what I was using to be a little bit stronger than I was expecting and I would've been in trouble. And no one would have come and found me in that room for a long time. So, the possibility of overdosing and dying would have been substantial. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah. \nUser:\nSo, yeah. That's what led me to get into the interview up at treatment center, you know actually attending the interview because again, before that happened, wasn't really that bothered about trying to sort something out. I didn't really know that I could, you know, I didn't know how to do it. So, I went for the interview. And just before I was due to go in, I had another moment similar where I sort of realised that the fear of never doing anything in life - or just fear, I now know it probably was just fear what was causing me to use - but you're never going to do anything in life, which is what you're afraid about, but you're not going to do anything in your life because you're using but you're using to kill the fear of never doing anything, you know [smiles]. That's just feeding itself. So. Yeah. And that's what actually made me, made me go. \n\n\nInterviewer: It's amazing. I wonder, you know, connected to your hoodie, wearing a hoodie and having something that is always there during a very difficult time. In what way is it special other than it reminds you of where you've been? \nUser:\nWell, I mean, I was one of these people that would never wear a T-shirt because the scars on my arms were horrific. You know, it was if I if I was, it gave me the opportunity to hide [emphasis], that's what it did, because I could put my hood up and hide the fact that I hadn't had my haircut for two years or and you know it kept you warm because I mean, I was out and about in some horrific weather. So ehm a sort of sense of hiding and security I suppose. Because, you know, ehm you're aware that you look like a mess, I don't think you're aware of how much of a mess you look, that you're aware that you don't, you're aware that you look homeless, do you know what I mean? I think now, because occasionally I run into some of those people, I don't go into CE unless I absolutely have to, but occasionally I have to. So, I'll run into someone I know, that's begging or just on the streets or whatever. And I noticed how sort of bad they look. Sort of reminded that, I used to, in my head at the time I thought that I looked worse than them. So, you attempt to hide how bad you look in the best way you possibly can, I did anyway, in the best way you possibly can. Which might involve putting the hood up. I always wear hoodies. I rarely wear anything else now. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Why do you think that is? \nUser:\nWell, it is probably a security thing, you know. When I was in rehab, when I was doing the detox, it was that summer in 2018, where it was like thirty degrees like every day. And I'd still be sat out on that back patio with the hoodie on and my hood up, just feeling like death you know, like I was so ill. So, everyone else did in t-shirts. And me and me and the other guy that started the same day as me, we both be there with hoodies on, you know. It gives it gives you a sense of security, you know, it's weird. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So, having gone through all of these experiences, what would you say does relapse or going back to using mean to you? \nUser:\nWell, I mean, I've heard so many people say that every time you relapse, everything just gets worse, worse and worse. So, you know, I don't I don't want to find out what things are like worse than the way they were the last time it happened. You know I really don't want to know what that's like. But it's still, you know, recovery still really difficult. Like I said earlier, the last time it happened it almost made me, you know, I had suicidal thoughts. So, I don't want to know what it feels like for it to be worse than that. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So, it's almost like relapse kind of means going back to that place of almost death, if you will...\nUser:\nYeah, the problem is for me, ehm I'm one of these substance misusers that if I'm in I'm all in, you know. But someone I said someone I know and have known for some time, but also has done the programme the same time as me, said to me that, you know, you relapse, you will kill yourself.  \n\n\nInterviewer: If you are that sort of person, then you are also doing a recovery 100 percent, don't you? \nUser:\nBut, you know, sometimes it doesn't feel like that [smiles]. Sometimes I do feel like I could be, I'm quite laid back - when it comes to everything else apart from misusing substances, I'm pretty laid back. I mean, I've got pretty laid back towards acquiring drugs. Some people get seriously impatient when the drug dealers are taking too long or whatever. I try and take a bit more of a relaxed attitude towards it. Doesn't mean I always do but I try to be. And I've got a pretty relaxed attitude to sort of everything. But because the substance misuse has been so vast, you know, that's where my head goes back to, you know. It's not...if I'm thinking about using, it won't just be using a little bit, you know I'll be like, 'oh, you know, when I had that [emphasis] much, that was fun'. So that's what my head is associating with using again, it's not just having a little bit, it's just going back to where I was, which was ridiculous. \n\nInterviewer: So it does it does sound like, kind of recapping a little bit, like the first couple of relapses you had where you have maybe a week off and then you went slowly but surely back into using a couple of days first and then five days a week, and then every day week, like you were unsatisfied with your life and you kind of saw the benefits of using again. Whereas that one last relapse you had where you ended up homeless and you ended up having suicidal thoughts, then you kind of had that internal drive or feeling that kind of pushed you to saying, 'OK, I think you need a change'. That's a huge shift from the first couple of times to relapsing, more seeing of like 'OK, how do I mask this unsatisfaction?' I feel it versus now thinking how do I not die because relapse is going to kill me. There's a huge difference in how you view that. \nUser:\nYeah. And like I said, It hasn't happened to me yet, but a relapse is part of recovery, as far as I understand it, because you have to beat yourself out of that whole that whole mindset of you know 'I can do everything and it'll be OK', you know, so it always gets worse always. So, you know, sometimes you have to go through that process again just to realise that you can't have a go anywhere near any of it again, because it's just going to be worse. Of course, once you know that ehm once you had an experience of some sort of proper recovery and you go back to using again, you're beating yourself up about the fact that you're using again and the way that you mask those feelings is to use on top of them [laughs].\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. What would you say you've learnt from, from your relapse experiences in terms of what could you have done differently? \nUser:\nI sort of now know that I've got absolutely no control over my substance misuse in any way shape or form. I've got no control over it at all, you know everything becomes around, I mean like the four years that I spent being homeless was ehm, in some ways quite ehm, in some ways it was kind of where I needed to be because...all I wanted to do was use and I was surrounded by people that were in that same place. It just highlights to me that when I'm back out there, that's all I want to do, you know, is...I know of no other way or, I don't even want to do anything any other way than just fill myself with substances, you know? So, having got that information now, it can drive me to...because I don't want to be in that place you know what I mean, it's ehm...it's not a nice place to be. It's put me into some really dodgy situations [smiles] with some very weird things which I can sort of think about some kind of humor because I know that those things actually turned out at the end. But some of the stuff that I've been through had the potential to end very badly [laughs]. But, didn't, you know. Like I said, I've got some crazy stories when I was homeless. I don't want to repeat that experience, you know, I wish I didn't know some of the things I knew. I wish I hadn't seen some of the things that I've seen. I wish I hadn't didn't I wish I didn't know that I'm quite capable of making enough money to support my drug addiction by doing things like begging, but you know I do. I can remember saying to someone at some point during my addiction, 'ah I'd never end up homeless and all that sort of stuff' but you know, in the end that's where I ended up...so it's sort of, this information can push you on to do what you need to do.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. How do you manage your relapse? What do you do to protect yourself from relapse now on a day to day basis? \nUser:\nJust telling people how I feel. So ehm reaching out for as much support as I possibly can. I [smiles] make a conscious effort not to let my pride and my ego get in the way of my life being made simple by receiving help from someone else. I try not to make it like oh everything's about...but if something comes up and there is the offer of help for that particular situation. Ehm I've various things at work, you know, I've got the opportunity to say ' do you know what? I find  this particular thing difficult or I don't like doing this, you know because I find this quite unsatisfying or this is physically demanding for me because I've got a physical issue'...ehm 'so can we try and do something about', you know what I mean, because if I start getting bored, frustrated or angry with work, for instance...ehm everything becomes really unsatisfying again, you know. And, of course, a lot of the lads where I do all the construction stuff I do, ehm they have a bad day they can go down to the pub. I can't do that! [laughs]. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's something that's difficult for you anyways isn't it? Like it's a it's a learning of opening up about how you feel as that was not quite easy for you, so that's really good. \nUser:\nNo feelings aren't…even though I grew up, I grew up in a house with a lot of women in it. But ehm feelings aren't necessarily discussed very much in my family. So, yeah, you know, I had no idea that I was gonna have to spend a year and doing what I do now talking with twenty other blokes about feelings you know [laughs] \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah how much would you say you think about it relapse?\nUser:\nI've lived with a lot of people that have relapsed. So, when I was in the second part of the programme, a lot of the guys that I lived with, relapsed. Everyone that I've lived with in this house has relapsed at one point or another or back in prison. And the main thing I see with those guys is that they don't talk about what's going on or they think they've got it all sorted. And I generally don't feel like I've got it sorted at all, to be quite honest. Ehm because of everyone relapsing, I've ended up spending quite a lot of time on my own in this house and being on my own really is quite difficult for me...ehm like I said to you earlier, I get sort of bored. There's only so much TV I can watch. I've been I've been set on ehm...so I was doing some 12 step stuff with my sponsor and I was getting the train back here, and it was a Saturday night at like half 7 and the train was quite dead because there's none on trains these days...and ehm I was just sat there and I was like, 'this is shit'. And it's because...sitting around in a house or whatever is just not fun for me. I like getting out and about...as nervous as I get around meeting new people, whatever, I do enjoy you know? I need things to be kept interesting you know and being on my own in this house was really, really boring for a very long time.\n\nI literally have, like, this internal thing going on in my head where like something would pop in and like 'ah this is rubbish' and then the other part is going 'shut up!' because I know where those thoughts are leading so, yeah, there's kind of a proper internal internal battle that goes on between like the part of me that's the addict and the part of me that's clean. But at least I'm able to sort of recognise that certain thoughts lead down a certain path, you know. So yeah, sometimes it does [laughs], sometimes it does feel like I'm sort of gripping onto the whole recovery thing for dear life. But there's a lot of big changes sort of happening in my life at the moment and...or there's a lot of possible big changes and not necessarily happening but I'm at a point where a lot of really good stuff is going on and I'm not used to it. I'm not used to things going well. So then because I've got such a negative view of myself, I've got this voice in the background going 'you're going to mess everything up'. But just kind of being armed with the the knowledge that you don't have to listen to that. Doesn't make it easy. But just knowing that there is another choice, you know, it's it's a choice to...like I said, these days I do. I have a choice. I can choose to go back to the drugs, or I can choose not to. But, you know, you've got to try and keep things healthy. To choose not to go back to drugs [smiles].\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. I wonder, have you ever heard about neural pathways and core beliefs and...it sounds like you have to completely rewire your brain and make new neural pathways? \nUser:\nI'm one of those people now that, you know, if I'm in a really, really bad place, and someone goes 'are you alright?', I would tell them how I feel. Don't get me wrong, it still very much depends on who I'm talking to [laughs]. But yeah, for me there's always got to be someone there that I can talk to. At times, it's probably one of the few things that's kept me clean like in recent months is just being able to talk to people and say that, you know, this is how I feel. Some of the stuff I've been through...you know of a charity called Adfam who support family members of people with addiction? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. \nUser:\nYeah, it's quite a big charity you know. And I didn't expect to meet this woman [person in Adfam] again but thanks zoom and lockdown, I've been able to be involved with one of their support groups like every week. And [founder] tells me that I've basically been adopted by like 15 women who are with me [laughs]...so ehm it started off with me going along with just kind of giving them some sort of insight into what might be going through their son or daughter's head with the addiction, and it's like now, you know, I ended up talking about how I am with those guys to give off as much information to them as I can. So that's one thing stopping me from relapsing is that I've got about 15 women from CE hunting me down [jokes]. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. There's no there's no possible way! Well is there anything else about your personal experience with relapse that you think is important for me to know? \nUser:\nWell, that I don't want to do it again. For a start, you know, it's ehm it takes you to such a dark place ehm...it's really difficult, it's tough. Ehm but the crazy thing is, about getting clean, is your brain conveniently forgets about all the crap that's gone on as a result of relapse, you know, so you're just starting you know, you start and you choose your brain, obviously, chooses to remember good stuff. Yeah, it's so easy to forget this stuff...the sort of chaos and the carnage and the feelings that come with going back to that. Sometimes it can be quite appealing and that can be frustrating in itself...\n\n\nInterviewer: I mean, if your brain is only telling you about the great things about using, then you've still got those blood stains on your hoodie which can remind you of how crappy it was.\nUser:\nYeah, I was an absolute mess when I was homeless...without washing myself and all the clothes I was wearing for six months...So yeah I sort of know how poorly I take care of myself when I'm using, you know, when I'm in that really, really dark place. And I do. I generally don't care about myself when I'm in that situation which is why I've got no veins left...I'm covered in scars. When I relapsed and I don't want to repeat that again, because if it gets worse than that, I don't want to know what I feel like.\n\n",
  "Transcript_Toby.txt": "Interviewer: OK, and so how about you start with your cards. So tell me about your cards and like kind of maybe whatever you want to share with me about them, how they helped you or. Yeah. It's up to you. \nUser:\nEhm so I kind of got these last year, ehm I do follow a certain religion called spiritualism. Ehm I attend like development groups and you know I go to the \nspiritualist church on a regular basis ehm when I was in ehm when I was actually in treatment ehm I used to go to the church every Sunday ehm and I would just find ehm feel kind of like solace and that energy in the church. Ehm also, while I was in treatment, I was going one of my friends is a professional medium, so I was going to achieve uhm the development group. So, I would go to ehm, can't remember the day on [date] evening ehm and attend to a group and ehm and we started to like work on kind of building like psychic ability or meeting these like abilities. And then we've looked spoke about getting cards. Ehm now I already had another set of cards, which somebody got me years ago, but never bought me own so while I was kind of in treatment, I bought this like pack of ehm cards. Ehm and what I do with them is like, I get times where I like I can, I can be quite chaotic to do you know what I mean in my brain. Works...goes on overdrive and ehm so a lot of time if it's like decisions to be made or I'm unsure about a certain situation or I've got this kind like...[pauses] I don't know like uncomfortable feelings or something else kinda ehm, because what you tend to do is you meant to ask a question and then you kind of put your energy onto the cards and pick the three cards and then, you know, look at the meaning of the cards. And it can be quite significant at times of the meaning behind the cards ehm and be quite healing. \n\n\nInterviewer: Oh, man, would you like to do this now? Would you like to maybe see what they say about how they like how they connect to your.\nUser:\nYeah, so let's just pick three now ehm...\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, for you. So that is about how it connects to your relapse experiences? \nUser:\nOk how I disconnect my addiction that's what I'm going to ask. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. Wow. That's so interesting. I've never I've never experienced that before. \nUser:\n[shuffles cards] and what you meant to do is you as you go through them, you just kind of the one that feels right, you just pick it out. So, you know, like if I was doing it for somebody else ehm I'd say pick three cards but what we can also do that that's fine. So we have [picks first card] ehm The Ten of Winter...ehm [picks second card] Awakening and [picks last card] Seven of Spring. So I'm just going to quickly read up on what they mean [checks cards]\nTen of Winter means:\nIt's time to walk away. This situation no longer serves you and is merely holding you back. Sometimes endings are sad and sometimes they are a relief. Change can be stressful and intimidating, but trust that this is a healthy and necessary one. Drawing this card means that you have probably known for some time that you needed to move on. You've been unable or unwilling to cut ties. Let go and set off on a journey towards a happier tomorrow, set new goals for yourself, make this a fresh beginning. Focus on the future, not on the past. A fairy is leaving a challenging land of winter for warm destination so her troubles will be over. And then it just tells me the resolution of difficulties. The end of addiction. A weight lifted off your shoulders. An emotional overreaction.\n\nSo good isn't it? For me it always just gives it some kind of depth and meaning to things. \nAnd Awakening [checks second card]:\nIt's time for a change of perspective. Seeing your challenges in an entirely different way can help you find a new lease on life or end a stagnant situation. Ask God for the angels and the fairies to give you signs that will help you perceive things in a whole other light. This card can show up to remind you just how wonderful, eclectic and magical you are. Others value the qualities within you that you may have labelled weird or unusual. You can come to see the incredible strength and potential of lies in being your own unique self. This is a card of charity and kindness. Just as the fairies are willing to reach out and help you on your path, you are asked to do the same to those who may be in need. It's beautiful to extend aid and compassion to others. Remember, though, to keep a balance so that you don't fall into an unhealthy pattern of overgiving. The fairy on the card is upside down, giving him a whole new way of reflecting upon his situation that do not being simple rests on his feet as he searches for just the right balance in his life. A new point of view seeing beyond what's hopeless. Hidden action behind an apparent standstill. Exploring your past life turns. Giving so that others can gain.\n \nSo again, that's quite significant isn't it to what we're doing now. And then one more [checks last card] Seven of Spring:\nIt's healthy and normal to stand up for yourself. Don't allow others to talk you out of your beliefs or opinions at this time. Your thoughts and feelings about what is the right thing to do are exactly spot on. This isn't the time to back down or to compromise, however, it is a good time to pay close attention to what was happening so that you can learn from the situation. Don't allow people in power to intimidate you, assert your ways. Sign petitions. Call your local government to attend rallies to demonstrate his strength in numbers. The fairy in this image is dressed in red to show her passion for her mission and her signals that she will be quick to defend their beliefs. Additional meanings: taking a stand, defending your position, knowing that you are right, courage through adversity, taking self-protection or assertiveness or gaining physical strength.\n\n\nInterviewer: That is so amazing! \nUser:\nWhich is quite significant isn't it to that question? Ehm and it's quite interesting that sometimes, if you've not really got like they say that you are meant to set an intention, you know, when you’re kind of putting relevance to the cards. Now, not everybody believes and things like that do you know what I mean...but I do. Ehm and it's interesting isn't it like, like what I was actually thinking about. It was kind of, the first card was kind of about...maybe second one was also about like it being important not just for me, for, you know, what I learn and grow, when I learn and grow going through all the stuff that I'm doing. That's going to not just help me. And I have been doing a lot of service lately, you know, for ehm NA. I've taken on quite a lot of service to help me. And I've also, you know, briefly spoke to you the other day don't ehm you know, and I feel like that ehm the card is about like, you know, making the right choices and going in the same direction and I'm obviously ehm starting a degree in mental health nursing. So, it feels very significant. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I love how it was talking about your you know, it's like you are learning. It's like a change. You know, something is about to change. It's a new season and something new and you're learning from it. And I wonder that, you know, and then also the second card then was more about, you know, advocate for stand up, be courageous about what you're going through. And I wonder if that is kind of like I mean, I don't know. And I want you to be very honest, but I wonder if that is kind of like how you maybe processed your relapse experiences because, you know, like how you go about this. Like, is it connected to what you think about your relapse?\nUser:\nYeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm kind of going a bit in a different direction with what I'm talking about. But basically, 100 percent because since last relapsed you know ehm I've had two I'd say I've had two times of a relapse ehm but it was like over a period of time so it was like a bit of a relapse and then I kind of stopped and then back again, but it was like two on two occasions that that happened. Ehm and, you know, for me, especially this time ehm I've become quite active in service ehm, you know, for fellowship, which is Narcotics Anonymous. And ehm that's been a significant change in my attitude ehm my commitment to to what I'm doing, do you know what I mean? Because I'm not, I'm doing something and it's helping me. But also, like, you know, I'm like, on the service team for like running these sorts of meetings and stuff, do you know what I mean. So I have to go there, I have to be there, I have to commit, I have to give my time like I've been given. So, you know, I feel that that is kind of related to that as well, you know. And that is a result of relapsing and going 'what can I do differently?' Because, you know, at times, you know what? Where am I going with this, I don't know what I'm doing wrong or you know what I mean? \n\n\nInterviewer: So you are one of the big guys now at NA, are you hey? \nUser:\nWell, I don't know. I mean, I'm just I'm just a bit more committed. I'm a bit more I'm not just sitting there, you know. I'm actually participating, actively participating, do you know what I mean? like I'm trying to do everything, everything that I can and everything that I hear people are talking about suggesting to do a long term, I'm trying to like constantly be doing that so that I don't end up in that same position, do you know what I mean? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, that is amazing. Ok the first question I had was when you thought about when you heard about the study, what kind of thoughts did you have or what came to mind? \nUser:\nSo obviously, my first...ehm when I first heard about this study, I'd had a one-to-one session with my counsellor, from treatment ehm and she sort of mentioned it...didn't really know an awful lot about what it was, she just said if I was interested in participating and then obviously, I spoke to you whatever. Ehm and again, I think ehm I can kind of relate it to how it's made me feel by being of service in NA, you know what I mean? Because it's not just it's not always just about what I'm going through and what I'm going through or what I've been through. And you know, you can get a healing from laying it out in a conversation or, you know, but also, it's like it could be really beneficial to other people as well. Who you know, might be going through some of the things and don't know how to talk about it and stuff…so so when we kind of have that conversation last week, it made me think of other people as well. So that made it more like, know what, I really do want to do this and also what I'd said to you like it's something that I'm definitely interested in learning more about myself...do you know what I mean? So, to go through this process, I think it is interesting for that as well, you know what I mean? If I'm going to study about mental health and I want to specialize in the area of addiction and me participating in this opens my mind. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's incredible. Like you love helping and advocating. \nUser:\nHonestly, ehm I probably haven't always been like that. Ehm it's took me to go down to the bottom and work my way back up to get to that point, do you know what I mean? But like what I am doing is learning how important it is to be of service, do you know what I mean? Ehm  obviously, like for me to get to these points and go through the process, other people have stood up for me, do you know what I mean, so it's like a natural thing, then that you're going to work through stuff and then also then do that to somebody else, because it's all free, isn't it? you know, if you go to anything like NA and then you've got all these people who go and give up their time and, you know, they're going for themselves or for anybody there and then helps somebody else, do you know what I mean. So, I'm learning more and more about that. So yeah. Yeah, I feel like that is a significant change for me as a person. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, that's amazing. All right. So, what was it like for you to be asked by a stranger to bring a personal item about that kind of symbolizes your relapse experience? What was that like for you? \nUser:\nEhm it just wasn't. Yeah, I mean, I just didn't get it at first, I didn't kind of get. You know, we've obviously just had a conversation about it now and kind of have more more of a kind of a deeper understanding of something that I could use ehm...You know, there is a possibility that it could be something that was related to me actually using, as I said before, I just, you know, for for my own sort of like safety, I had kind of had got rid of anything like that so then I was just unsure as to exactly what to use. But then, you know, now as we've kind of gone through it and I've done that it felt like exactly the right thing to do, do you know what I mean. And yeah. I mean, I'm uncertain if I've answered your question. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, no you did. A bit confused in the beginning, but it was it was all good. \nUser:\nYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.\n\n\nInterviewer: Well, I'm going to go on to asking about the relapse experience. So you said you mentioned you had 2...have you had, are those the only kind of ones during your life?\nUser:\nNo no no ehm...I mean ehm...So when I described two relapses ehm I kind of describe them as the point of going into treatment ehm. I went into treatment last year and when I got back from, I was living in the south of England and moved back up north to kind of get some help because it's like family, friends and stuff and I went into ehm ehm our treatment facility in north center and it's called treatment facility. So, I was in there for two weeks and I just couldn't deal with it. Ehm I had moved into like an abstinence house. Ehm but I just I obviously wasn't ready at that time. And when it was getting very, like emotional and stuff and I was like 'I don't need to be through this’. You know this isn't for me. So, I left ehm on the Friday afternoon and by the Friday evening, I was kind of using, do you know what I mean? I was drinking and then taking drugs ehm smoking crack cocaine, getting to which, I was like so not wanting to do but what I was doing it ehm I was doing it and and then I kind of got worse after that. Ehm and and so getting kicked out of my ehm supposed accommodation and then ended up homeless. While I was homeless, I had no home to go back to. Ehm so then they were like recommending that I go to this kind of hostel thing, which was just horrific. While in there, someone paid for me to stay in the hotel for one night and then I got put in the Salvation Army hostel for about ten days. And and then ehm because I also have kind of problems with mental health. So, I had to go to the counsellor and then they'd put me in this kind of supported housing, which I'm in now. So ehm but it's like it's not an abstinence house. Just they've got like us 14. We have our own flats. And and I carried on using for a little while ehm not kind of to the extreme that I was before I moved back from the southwest but ehm then I was kind of I just, you know, I need to change, I need to do something different. \n\nSo, I got back in contact with the treatment place and I went back in there ehm I think it was kind of like at the end of September last year or beginning of October maybe. And it's like a like a preliminary stage that you're in for several weeks then you go back into treatment. So, then I stayed abstinent from the end of September up until until March. And so, it's like six months altogether. Ehm and then I relapsed. Ehm so kind of you know, what I've kind of learnt from being in recovery is that you relapse when you're in recovery. Do you know, there's times, loads of times in the past prior to coming back from last year that I've carried on that I've used again, have used again, have used again but I've never been in recovery, never been following a programme, do you know what I mean, or anything like that. So, I kind of maybe think that this last year is really that time when it can be the most significant way that I can say that I've relapsed, because I've had time where I've been hospitalized for using ehm and been seriously ill and come out and I have not used for like seven months. So, you could say that that's a relapse. But, having been in recovery, do you know what I mean, I just chose not to use for those seven months of more of fear of dying. Ehm so and what was what else...was I going to answer sorry? \n\n\nInterviewer: Oh, it's this is more of a conversation. So I might pop in some questions that come to my mind and one was ehm, it is so interesting that you kind of connect relapse with being in recovery. It happens when you're in in recovery rather than you had a time of being seven months where you chose not to use. And you and that kind of for you almost doesn't seem to be recovery. It's just really interesting. I've never heard somebody say that that way. So how does that make you feel to have relapsed multiple times?\nUser:\nYeah, so, I mean, prior to coming into recovery and stuff like that and going through treatment ehm I would have, I probably would have said about that time where I didn't use and then that I started to use again. And then that it got completely out of hand, do you know what I mean. But it was only really. It was one time really, where I wouldn't use ehm for several months because I've been in hospital with kidney failure ehm from taking an overdose ehm and that it was more like say out of fear. And then I'd kind of started to use again ehm and then it just went to a whole new level. And then there wasn't really like, because there was because with my kind of using there, I wasn't using every single day. It was like these mad sorts of benders, which were then getting more and more and time off between was less. But I'd say, you know, like from I think what it is I got when you go into recovery so you've kind of been through treatments, then you find your fellowship, and you return to meetings and you're kind of learning about not taking not taking any mood or mind altering substances ehm, then it feels more significant if you relapse. So, like, I relapsed at the beginning of lockdown ehm it's hard ehm and kind of, I'd gone through treatment. I was having doubts about the fellowship, I was having doubts about my sponsor, I'd started to date somebody. So that was causing all this emotional turmoil, and I was also having kind of episodes with mental health. Ehm and I relapsed. And then I stopped a couple of days, like I stopped for 30 days and then relapsed again ehm which then lasted another few weeks. And then I was like, 'right come on, come on, come on. You can change this' and then I'd stopped for 90 days and then ehm having issues again and kind kind of what I've kind of learnt over the past few months ehm it's been how like I react to things and stuff and like I don't cope with emotional things very well. And ehm and the using is kind of the end end of that. So, it's kind of like me having to realize ehm...How to how to recognize those kinds of when those kinds of things are creeping in, do you know what I mean? Ehm for it to not happen again, do you know what I mean ehm. But I'm still I react to things in a certain way, but like not. It's like trying to choose something differently, do you know what I mean. \n\n\nInterviewer: How many times would you say you've relapsed then?\nUser:\nGod. I mean, you know, if we just look at it in general terms [laughs] a lot, I don't know how many, you know, 20 times maybe, I don't know. But, you know, in relation to hoping to coming back and starting that journey of recovery ehm is probably five.\n\nInterviewer: OK, um, how do you feel about having relapsed so many times? \nUser:\nWell, you know, I think what it is, is if you're not aware, if if you're not aware of what you're suffering with or. That's kind of where they got that kind of term that how how can you be relapsing if you're not aware of what's wrong with you or you in denial? You basically, you're not relapsing, you just you're still using because you haven't you haven't had a period of like recovering abstinence. You know what I mean? Ehm I think that's where that kind of idea comes from, which you can kind of understand. I've gone through some work, do you know what I mean but when you relapse, that's just horrendous because you just [pauses] It's like especially after going into recovery, because it's like you you know you know what, you shouldn't be doing it. So, like it hasn't had the consequences of my using weren't as bad as what they were before I went through treatment and everything, but the mental consequences were 10 times worse because I kind of I had an awareness of recovery. Does that make sense? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Would you say it's even harder now that you have that awareness of recovery?\nUser:\nIt's like more painful because. And then, yeah, and and I think obviously the way it affects me, but then it's like just that kind of guilt and shame and like letting people down and, you know, I mean. Like what is wrong with me? Why can't I get this or...it's hard.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yes. So has going through five relapses made a difference on how you see yourself? \nUser:\nEhm well, for me, it's been, every single time something's kind of happened it's then, you know, when I'm kind of out of it, and I kind of look back and reflect, I can kind of see where I've gone wrong or you know actually what I'm suffering with. It's more the drink and drugs are a solution to the way that you feel. It's like ehm, you know, what I said before, if things are going on for me and it's kind of mentally challenging or emotionally challenging, when it gets out of hand. That's my problem. And then I will use to try and stop me from feeling that way. So, it's now learning how to not use to I'm just learning how to manage those emotions and feelings ehm without using which, you know, hopefully I can get there.  \n\n\nInterviewer: That's literally my next question. Like, how would you say you have changed through these experiences? \nUser:\nSo. So. What I'm kind of getting a bit more awareness around is, if certain conversations or situations happen that kind of make me feel not quite accepted or a little bit rejected, it creates this kind of turmoil, internal turmoil and I'm kind of maybe like conditioned myself throughout the years to kind of block that out and all…you know I haven't probably not really blocking out always trying like 'I don't need to mention that' but what it does is it kind of like makes me angry or resentful or emotional or upset. Ehm so what I'm learning to do is when and even if it's only something small is talk about it. Talk about it to my sponsor. Talk about it to my peers, talk about it to my counsellor when so that I don't get to a point where several things have happened. And by that point, I can't deal with that. So that's that's a major, major shift for me. Ehm and where I said before, like, you know, before we went into lockdown, it was doing its service, I'll be the one that's making the tea and greeting people ehm and in this last 7 weeks, I think, must be nearly 8 weeks now, ehm that's been really key for me to be of service ehm because it's like it's kind of like a deeper commitment to my recovery, you know, on four days of the week. I mean, I enjoy meeting every single day at the moment I'm doing 90 meetings in 90 days ehm and of four days of the week I do service so I have to be there at that time, so I then have to fit anything else that needs to be done within my day has to fit around that. So that's like a big part of my day ehm and that's that's been massively helpful for me to kind of have a structure and a deeper commitment to my recovery because ehm. So yeah, commitment and awareness. And maybe, like understand it like a bit more acceptance of myself and what I'm suffering with.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, well, those are big things. Yeah, OK. How does your family/friends view you as a result of all of your experiences? \nUser:\nYeah, I mean, you know, like when I look back, you know, I moved back to the north of England ehm in May 2019 ehm it's been, you know what we spoke about, there's been several times where I carried on. Like having a little bit of abstinence using, have abstinence then using, have a little abstinence then using but on the whole, throughout that period, my life has gradually got a bit better and it took my family hundred percent, you know, they were barely speaking to me and my sister didn't speak to me for five months and she didn't know what to do. Yeah, they definitely kind of you know, obviously there's a kind of worry every time, you know, they kind of will notice straight away if I have changed and my behaviour is changing. And, you know, I'm definitely off on like a better relationship with my family ehm. And friends, you know I'm making new friends as well, which I think is important as well, can't kind of have I can't lead my life in that way ehm and if that means I have to have a new set of friends to stay healthy and stay well then that's what I've got to do. Ehm so you know I meet people through recovery, which I kind of got deeper and deeper into relationship with. You know and they are noticing a change in me and my sponsor is definitely noticing a change ehm he's kind of vocalized it to me the other day saying that he can feel the difference with me and how I'm approach things, and I can feel it myself, but I don't want to get complacent to something and to friendships because it's a day at a time isn't it? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes, yeah. Actually, I love that you said that with new friends because it wasn't that one of the cards said too, like of like not looking back, but actually kind of, you know, whatever other people say doesn't matter. But like do your own your new season moving forward. It was something like this in the cards. \nUser:\nAbsolutely. Yeah, I probably wouldn't have been noticing but that sounds like something like you've just picked up on that, you know what I mean? And and because it is it's like standing in your own truth and not being ashamed to talk about it. You know, people go on to social media and post all these things and, no that isn't necessarily me, but to be honest, you know, and I'm still because my sponsor will often say to me 'Save your ass, not your face.' So, you know, I kind of attempted living that, like I'm a [profession] and, you know, at times, you know, because it's like a profession, I may not necessarily be honest with people, but it has kind of opened the door to me lapses in the past because everyone was drinking or people on a social setting taking drugs, you know, and for me ehm I can't I can't do that, you know, I'm not always honest, so I don't always say' do you know what, I'm in recovery'. So that still needs to be something that I need to work on. But that totally fits in with what you just mentioned there about. Yeah, to be honest. But it's yeah. \n\n\nInterviewer:  Gosh, it's amazing how did you get into that? That's amazing.\nUser:\nI trained to be a [profession] when I was 17. And and, you know, I was pretty successful with it, had some great, fantastic jobs in CE and travelled the world a lot back then. And it was always been like my party and like my crazy lifestyle and the background, which then eventually kind of took over. But yeah, and it's something I've been doing for a long time now. Twenty-one years, and then I trained to [other profession] in 2012 so about 8 years ago, but then I went into like doing a degree and like a [degree course] ehm. And I got like I ended up getting like a teaching position straight after it on a sort of degree course in CE and then at the university they offered a teaching position. But I ended up like having a major issue with drugs while I was trying to do that job, so I had to resign. And, you know, and and I've kind of like I'm trying to take a different kind of turn with my life, to be honest, at this point in time, because as much as I look as much as I love that job and you know I've done it for a long time, there is [pauses] I don't know it can encourage an unhealthy kind of an unhealthy environment to be in. It's kind of, you know, if you're in the industry, there is this kind of like drink and drugs so. I think, you know, when I, my abilities have kind of helped me to mask what's really going on in a lot of ways, because I have the ability to perform until I couldn't hold it together anymore. But I kind of thought it gets a lot easier because of that, so it's been as much a positive and, in some respects, and in other ways it's been very detrimental. And maybe that's why it's taken me a long time to get to this point, you know. And also, you know, because the type of work that I'm in, I know how to present myself quite well, you know I can make myself look presentable. So, then it completely hides like no one can see what's really going on. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Whereas now, you're more open? You kind of it's almost like the [profession] is off and you're like actually learning to be more your authentic self?\nUser:\nYeah. And I think it's definitely a journey. It's a constant learning process. And and there's probably more and more things that I need to work on but. I kind of was inspired when I was in treatment especially, and kind of watching, watching and feeling being part of this experience of like changing groups, like an internal experience rather than in you know [profession] is external, which does have an internal impact on mental health and wellbeing, but this kind of journey is an internal thing. I think that's kind of helped me to make decisions about where I want to go for the rest of my life. You know with the mental health nursing I could be very active in that.\n\n\nInterviewer: Right. Yeah, that's amazing. So amazing. Ok so how did you feel when you were about to relapse and kind of afterwards?\nUser:\nOK, I don't remember the date now, but it was kind of the end of March beginning of April this year and I'd basically just. When I was when I had kind of bumped into somebody who I hadn't seen for many years ehm while I was at the end of my treatment and it was then we decided to meet up and go on a date. I think I was just kind of at the end of treatment and then maybe I had a couple of days left or I just I think I've just finished maybe and. So, started to go on dates and it was really lovely ehm, but I had to be, like straight away, be very honest about ehm my personal life ehm and this person and I haven't seen him for for many years. And he was kind of linked to prior to 2012 I used to be be kind of active in the club scene and go out partying and be like I was still a bit able to hold it together and not know what was very much aware of what's going on. Like, what was really like. It was not nearly as bad, but basically back then I just had this fear like I don't know why like I was so bothered of about him talking about me to all these people. So, it just set off this kind of internal [pauses] like self-loathing, maybe if that's the right word, about it all you know about myself and about being judged not being accepted. And, you know, God knows. And so, I think it was kind of doomed, really from the start, you know, and I've been advised not to get in relationships, but I was kind of like you know I haven't been with anyone for a long time. You know I'm just going to take it easy and see how it goes. But it’s kind of, I just... if I'm looking back at it right now, like I wasn't coping at all with...I would be crying and stuff. And I just wasn't great with the emotions at all very well ehm but at the same time, I had come out of treatment ehm I was getting told to do 90 meetings in 90 days, and I just was like, I don't feel I need to I've just done treatment and, you know, I was attacked quite a few years ago and nine and a half years ago, like, I was kind of beaten up so I do get a bit of fear sometimes about being in certain situations. And, you know, like some of the meetings that you go to and stuff can be quite ehm masculine. And, you know, it just doesn't feel comfortable for me to be in that kind of environment. And so, I was like resisting going to those meetings to the point where I actually thought, 'right, I'm not doing this fellowship now. I'm going to go to a different fellowship.' And then it was just very chaotic. And there was kind of a lot of things going on. And then we went into lockdown. And then I just remember just. Like that, that guy, had kind of like a kind of sense that something wasn't quite right with it and and I and he'd ended up messaging me because of the Lockdown saying that his kind of ex-partner was going to move back in with him. Ehm I remember just thinking 'I can't deal with this shit' and I ended up, I'd got myself into that much emotional turmoil that I'd kind of, not really had any solid connections with recovery, like with fellowship sorry, ehm so I was kind of like backed myself in this corner and then I saw a different kind of like, quite significant, ehm episode ehm with mental health. So, I'd gone to like ehm my mum's and had been, I had these kinds of outbursts of energy and stuff at times ehm and just a bit kind of crazy behaviour. \n\nSo, I ended up having a massive argument with my mum and my sister about it and I just I just completely lost her. And then my reaction straightaway then was to go and drink alcohol ehm which I did for like a day and a half. Ehm then I stopped for a couple of days, I owned it, I spoke about what I've done. And then on, that was like mid-week. And then by the Friday, I kind of had a one-to-one with one of the counsellors and honest at the same time I'd kind of like drawn a line with that guy ehm. But I just I was just it just felt very, very emotional and I just couldn't handle it. And then I actually then used drugs that day ehm, I broke down in one of the meetings and then just I think I;d already kind of made that... I'd already gone down that path and carried on for a week or so, a couple of weeks I can't remember, ehm but I was just. I remember just being like, 'oh God.' And it broke out and I was kind of vulnerable. I was, had then used ehm something that I'd sworn that I wasn't going to do again, you know, six months earlier and then I'd gone in the lockdown. I haven't seen anybody really you know apart from the odd pair. I haven't seen any of my family. And ehm I went to do someone's hair who was like ehm somebody I'd known for years and they were all having like a garden party. And he offered me a beer and I just thought, 'why not?', I'm fine. I'll be fine type of thing but I kind of was in that I'd already been using and ehm then he brought out a bag of cocaine. So, I then used cocaine. And then I came home that night. I didn't want to tell them. I felt ashamed ehm that I'd been using again. So, I was then back out there again so that was kind of like old. One period but then I just. I think I need to use again and oh I don't know it was just chaotic and ehm. Since that's gone on ehm I went to the community mental health team, try to get to the bottom of what goes on with the mental health. I've been diagnosed with ADHD now and trying to get treatment for that ehm. So, I kind of got different things going on, you know, what the feelings and the emotional instability and ehm yeah, that's that's my problem. That's the kind of like because I'm on this journey now with mental health now because they can't really get to the bottom of things until you are abstinent. And they're still unsure whether there's some kind of personality disorder going on like an emotionally unstable personality disorder. But now, I'm getting treatment for ADHD ehm so it's kind of like trying to treat everything separately, Yeah, you could say there's a lot going on. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't, do you know what I mean? Ehm but it's definitely feelings that might...and not been able to cope with emotions. That is probably my driving force into using. \n\n\n\nInterviewer: Can you remember how you felt right after you relapsed, did you have any particular thoughts or any feelings? \nUser:\nEhm I definitely just felt disappointed. Ehm guilty, shameful. Ehm, you know. That period, that first kind of period ehm back in April, March or April, that went right through April ehm by the end of it I was starting to get that kind of ehm well I was starting to just become like lying and deceit, manipulative, you know all those kinds of negative traits that come with using ehm and that made me feel horrendous. Because I was like, oh, my God, I don't want to this isn't what I want to be, you know, I don't want. Ehm you know, I definitely feel that I'm not like that when I'm not using me. I feel like there's two different people. Ehm so that just and then it's like it's then up until like you've got to tell everybody to be honest and you know, that's challenging. You know, you feel bad enough about what you've done but you got then explain to somebody else and then take home what they're going to feel about it, do you know what I mean. It's challenging. It just makes you feel like your self-worth is low. You know, just having to try to explain it. It's just...it's hard. It's not a good place. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, I, I was I got really interested there when you said it's almost like, you know, you said, yeah. You kind of got reverting back to these, you know, manipulative and lying traits. But at the same time, you also having almost like an internal policy or something like something that tells you internally, I don't want to be like this. So it's almost like you have an internal, like, battle or whatever, like a dilemma. \nUser:\nMore of the battle, and where I was trying to explain before, is once you kind of go into recovery you start to learn...you're aware, then you're aware of what you're suffering with. And prior to coming back last year, I would always be in denial really about what I'm suffering with, so. Whereas now it's like, oh, my God what are you doing, do you know what I mean? Ehm I don't want to do this, but again, it's like what I've learnt from this kind of second occasion, which was 50 something days ago for two weeks before that. I was learning to realise about the emotion it is how I react to situations and how I deal with my emotions or don't deal with them. That's my problem. You know, prior to that maybe I still had this kind of idea that the drink and drugs is what. That's you. That's the problem. That makes me behave in a completely different way. When I then used the drinks or drugs or what happened before. I got to that point where that seems like the best option. That's what I'm that's what I need to learn to address. \n\nIt's not the root cause cause it's like tryna address the what the problem is. You know, what I've kind of come to learn is that drink and drugs are the solution they're not, they then become a problem as well. Because you don't want to feel what you're feeling. You you know, why don't you try to change the way you feel trying to not. So it's like learning how to manage, learning how to feel things like and how to manage your emotions and stuff is that's that's then has to become the solution, which you're kind of slowly getting moving towards bit by bit. Ehm my solution now has to be kind of like, say I go to my 12 step programmes they made me learning about myself.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Gosh, thank you for sharing that. And so how would you describe what a relapse means to you? What does relapse mean to you? Like, you know, are there any kind of particular thoughts or like words or images that come to mind or if you can just have a general think about that. \nUser:\nSo I'd say for me personally ehm, you know, I don't want to relapse a hundred percent now. I don't want to have to go through anything like that again, but it's taken those occasions to me to come to this kind of deeper surrender, to like my problems, and and have an understanding of, you know, without those things happening. I have been able to learn from them, I've been able to like reflect on them and look back and see my patterns of behaviour and see ehm that actually like, you know, even though it's maybe like something slightly different that's happened, the way it is is how I react to things like ehm where I kind of briefly touch on it and know all the answers before, you know like, if something makes me feel like I'm not really accepted or rejected, it sets off this kind of internal pain for me. So, without those relapses, I wouldn't have learned that, you know what I mean? Because I may have may have done it at some point in my life but it's it's it's gave me an awareness, a deeper sense of awareness of myself by going through those things. So, you know, some people don't go through that. Some people can stay abstinent but for me, that's some part of my journey so far. And I think obviously, if you don't learn from something, at some point you go to the next thing that comes along that presents itself in that way again. It's gonna take me down the same path again. It's about learning from it, ehm but just having like ehm support you know, obviously I'm quite lucky, I'm still under continuing care from treatment you know, so I have those people to kind of reflect and chat about things ehm, but I also have NA so my fellowship, NA what I go to, so I have other addicts that kinds of. Because people, other people can see things that maybe I can't. \n\n\nInterviewer: That's a really powerful answer. Having gone through, you know, multiple relapses, how did you feel when you then went back to treatment? \nUser:\nIt's horrible. Like when I spoke, because I'll go back to speaking about ehm March and April around that time. You know, I'd relapsed at the beginning when I started drunk first for a couple of days then I went on a bender for a few days. And then I kind of stopped for 30 days so in that 30 days I was in fear of ehm...'oh God I can't believe I've done' you know I don't want to lead my life this way, and then when it got to that point where I'd done it again, I'd ehm I've been getting so much more support, so it felt even worse. I was like ehm letting down, letting all those people down and ehm then another person, who I've just kinda become friends within treatment who'd relapsed, asked me to go around and help and then gave me the drugs. I didn't. I kept them. And then whether it was going to a place of guilt or whatever, but I'd kind of mentioned it to people knew that I'd gone there and were worried that that's what happened, so I said I'd throw them away and I haden't and used them and that's what I said before, that I kind of got into that pattern that I was lying to people....to have lied to people who were supporting me. So, to then have to be honest about that felt horrendous, because it felt like I was letting them all down. But it's like I, I have a tendency to think to think what I think is going to happen or what I think is going to get said or and actually in reality it's completely different than that. But by me thinking what I think it's going to be, it can help me back from actually doing it and so I'd say even that has been like because it's like I had to go through that kind of pain. Ehm it's a learning process as well. To just be honest ehm.\n\n\nInterviewer: Um, yes so what effects would you say, did your number of relapses, so let's say five, the five big ones, and what effects did all of them have on your recovery? \nUser:\nYou know, I'd say like going back to last year, 2019 when I'd attempted treatment and then kind of relapsed, I wasn't really following anything in particular ehm. I think that's when people thought I was bit of a lost cause you know by that point I'd moved back in the north I was still heavily using crack cocaine and then I was now using heroin to bring myself down and just, you know, my sister you know, she's got children. She didn't want them to think that she can't condones that kind of to behaviour ehm. And then you kind of went back into treatment, you know. Sorry I think I got off in the wrong direction with the question ehm...Sorry, can I start again with that? \n\n\nInterviewer: Oh, absolutely, yes, absolutely no problem. What is the difference between having had one relapse and going into treatment versus having had five and then going into treatment? \nUser:\nYes. Sorry, I'd kinda lost my thought. So, when I had to go back, I'd kind of had this disagreement with one of the counsellors when I was first in treatment, went and complained about her, so then having to go back. I totally was like 'I'm never going back there', I'd totally ruled it out and then I had to kind of go and face that ehm...we ended up getting on really very well in the end with that lady ehm, you know, it was like I wasn't ready. They totally. It's really like, you know, everything that I'd just spoken about that sense where I think something's going to be a certain way and to be able to see it's completely different experiences. And that's part of my problem. It's my thinking. It's the way I think something's going to be but each time. Like, I'm kind of, you know, I have got an awareness, have got an understanding, have got...you know, people are...people who have seen I'd say, me as I should, me as I am you know the real me ehm. You know, I am constantly learning each time those things, all help me within my recovery. You know, I'm able to...it's taken a long time for me to kind of start being open more when in meetings and stuff and kind of ehm because sometimes I share and I'm like 'oh, my gosh, what am I going on about?' Ehm but it's getting stronger. Ehm, you know, and there's going to be a lot of people who may have been through kind of similar experience, so yeah. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, OK, so the next question would be again about recovery. So if you had to describe what recovery means to you after having had multiple relapses, what would you say? \nUser:\nI mean, I've definitely come to the realisation that I need ehm I need to be active within my recovery fellowship, you know what I mean? I have to be I have to have to have that because I know I can't do it on my own. Yeah, I mean I don't really know how to answer that question ehm...Sorry again I just got a bit lost. \n\n\nInterviewer: No, no, no, it's fine. So what would you say does recovery mean to you? Like and has it so has it changed? Let's say what did recovery mean to you when you first got had a relapse\nUser:\nSo recovery. When I came back last year, it was I knew I needed to stop taking drugs because it's destroying my life, you know, the consequences of my using terrible arrests, job loss, home loss, homelessness, family disowned me you know so many consequences ehm I need to stop using drugs. So stop using drugs. And actually, you know, my recovery, my and my fellowship has helped me to learn take the drugs away that's when you can really see what the problem is ehm so recovery is important for ehm learning and growing continually as a person ehm and again probably without all these situations that bring up all these emotions and feelings and then relapsing that bring up all these other emotions and feelings, I'm not not going to learn and grow so my recovery is is key to all that. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. So, what would you say you've learnt from relapse? \nUser:\nYou know, my my relapses have helped me to understand myself on a deeper level ehm it's kind of took for me to go through something, experience something, to then have a opportunity to stand, look back and reflect and see and learn about patterns in my behaviours and that all of that, all of all of my kinds of things that have caused these kinds of emotions that I know have got kinds of similarities with the way it makes me feel, you know what I mean? And that is what I need the help and what I need to keep working on today. I mean, without those relapses, I wouldn't have experienced that. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Is there anything that you would have done differently or wished you would have known or the service could have done differently for you? \nUser:\nI mean, ehm I could say. Yes, to that question, ehm, you know, I wish it was all plain sailing and really easy thing to do and, you know, everybody gets a different experience, but my experience hasn't been that ehm, you know, in the way that I'm...in the position that I'm sort of getting into now, where I've got this kind of deep level of awareness about myself. Maybe no, I wouldn't, because if I hadn't gone through what I've gone through, if I hadn't experienced what I've experienced then would I [pauses] be where I'm at now, and I still got quite a lot of work to do on myself, and I'm hoping that I can continue to do that without having to use drink or drugs to as a solution and hope that what I'm doing with my fellowship will work for me...to continue on this path. But again, like to answer that question again like without those experiences, I wouldn't have that...I wouldn't be able to see that person I am, I wouldn't be able to notice my reactions.\n\n\nInterviewer: So on a day to day basis, how do you manage your recovery and or protect yourself from relapse? \nUser:\nMy my difference in this last 54 days ehm I've been doing, I've been still doing 90 meetings in 90 days, which is what I was doing anyway ehm but I've also been doing my service commitments, which they are major to me...on top of that ehm it was kind of the world has kind of opened up a little bit again ehm I can go back to my spiritualist church ehm…so I do that...every Monday I do a development group ehm I also, I used to sing when I was younger and I never really pushed myself with it at all. So, I started having singing lessons...so I do that on a Thursday ehm I've kind of made things a little bit less pressured. So, you know, I've always in the past felt that I needed to be doing this job or working really hard in that way to kind of change things. Ehm so I'd in March applied and started to do a degree, which was just too much at that time because I had too much going on. But I've now put that forward to to restart in January and hopefully by January I'm in a better place, emotionally and mentally to cope with the pressures of doing a degree. But it's kind of like recognising that my recovery needs to come first before anything else because...otherwise I haven't got those solid foundations to cope with. \n\n\nInterviewer: Would you say that on a day-to-day basis, you think about relapse or using? \nUser:\nWhat I've what I've what I've noticed so it might just be a small thing. So, it could be like, say, a particular person might kind of do something that makes me feel a certain way or like feel a bit emotional or like, 'oh my God why are they doing it? Now why would you say that?' do you know what I mean? Ehm but what I've, I'm kind of aware of it now so I'm kind of noticing it as it's happening and I'm speaking about it immediately. So that's a big change for me, do you know what I mean? Whereas in the past I wouldn't do that. I'd go... [mimics frustration] 'ugh forget it!' but it's still thinking about it and then the next time something happens, I may overthink it even more so ehm yah, did that answer that question? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, you kind of find a way through, even if you might get triggered…\nUser:\nYah, sorry. So, I might...in the past because I haven't dealt with those things or been open and verbal about those things. It's then got to a point where it's like, 'oh my God, I've got that many different things going on inside' that using becomes the most appealing thing to do...to stop 'I don't want to feel that way', so I'm trying to recognise that before that gets to that point. There is occasions where I go...I have a thought, you know, like last night I was on my way to my spiritual group and I walked past a pub and just for a slick moment, my thought was 'oh, I' you know I was just going there and have a pint of lager' but I didn't...ehm it was just exhausting...it's like trying to, like, learn that this thought obviously you don't have to act on those thoughts and feelings about things, how I manage those feelings and be honest and talk about it is going to stop me from getting to that point where then I've got that many things going on internally like that when I do go past that pub there's like the things that I should do, because I'm being honest and speak about these things that it doesn't become, do you know what I mean? \n\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yes. Would you say that how you are managing it in this particular way of speaking up, has that been a result of having had multiple relapses or was that something you did already the first time you went into treatment? \nUser:\nNo, that's definitely been a change for me. And as a result of my relapses and and again, being able to, like, reflect back and actually see what was going on, what when was it changing where was the moment that things weren't going right? And I wasn't being honest about my feelings. I wasn't... I didn't see them as important, I didn't see them as...and what can happen is because I can think a certain way about something, like what I was explaining before, you know, I thought that woman would hate me going back into treatment. Yeah, that wasn't the case. So then and then thinking about it a completely different way to what was actually the reality of it. Whereas, you know, if that was happened now, I can go 'oh my god this has happened. I feel like I'm about to...why do I feel?' What what's going on for me that makes me feel that way. And you know, when I'm speaking about these things, it takes the power out of it. You know what I mean? And it doesn't have to build up into something because what they sort of say it's like a bit of a resentment can build, so you can become quite resentful to that person when actually, you know, like what happened a few weeks back is, I'd I was kind of not really liking the way my sponsor was speaking to me and I wasn't honest about it and tell him that's how I was feeling it's like 'you said that and it's making me feel this way' I just didn't say anything. But then I would talk to somebody else about it. I couldn't say it to him to the point and in the end, I didn't want anything to do I don't know where I was with him and then I don't even want to start with that fellowship anymore again...It's kind of in a short space of time, I was in a place where I was isolated. So, but I've only learnt that from relapsing and then being able to look back and be made aware of those patterns. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK, is there anything else that you would like to add to your experience, or think is important for people to know about relapsing? \nUser:\nI'd say...ehm the thing that's just significant to me, it's like they have three kinds of principles, what they talk about within the first bit of going into recovery ehm a bit in treatments but even more so in my fellowship I go to, is honesty, open mindedness and willingness. Being honest is key for me, it's like also being kind of open to things to sort of like say, 'I'm not doing that because I think it's going to be', you know what I mean? I'm not even giving it a chance. Ehm and I'm not willing, you know what I mean? It's like I'm not willing to do those things so those those things are key. And it's like you have to constantly be prepared, be prepared to just be to take on board what's been stressed is for my benefit, you know what I mean? It took me time to get to that point where I realised how so. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So what was it like for you to do this, to do this interview? Like how are you feeling now? \nUser:\nI feel like it's kind of a healing process for me because it kind of it's going to explain things in a different kind of way, you know what I mean? And actually, like a go, put all join all those dots together and reflect. I mean one, one thing I can just say about myself is you know, when I was a young lad my my I was just having fun...I would go out with friends on weekends and would take ecstasy tablets and partying in clubs, listen to music, go to all big parties all around the country, go to and then, you know, over a period of time got gradually worse you know all my friends were kind of having children and, you know, their life would go in a different direction and I was getting worse, never in a million years, being a sixteen, seventeen year old and going to [island] and going to the big, you know, because when I become thirty-eight, you know the raves we've seen is huge. And that was all that was our hobby was going to a big rave. Never in a million years would I have thought that so many years down the line I'd be ending up smoking crack and heroin that wasn't something that I thought would happen. But it's my reality isn't it. None can ambition that that's the end. But it's my journey and I just hope that I can stay in a good place and hopefully someone will learn something from where I've been. And that's that then. You know, if I hadn't been on that journey, I wouldn't have been able to help that other person today. \n\n",
  "Transcript_Trish.txt": "Interviewer: OK, well I'm actually really excited to see your personal items. So would you be OK with starting with that. \nUser:\nWith my poem. Yes sure [connection buffered] that is called Out of the shadows, want me to read it? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes, that would be lovely. \nUser:\nOK [reads poem] \n\n\nInterviewer: Oh wow. Thank you so much. That's beautiful. \nUser:\nI've got loads of poems about addiction that I've written before. I don't know if you want to hear any more? \n\n\nInterviewer: I would be super interested in how how this kind of connects with your experience of relapse. So it's super deep. I feel like it's super personal to you. And I wonder maybe you could tell me a little bit about how did this poem come about? Like how did you when did you start writing it? \nUser:\nI wrote that poem on the 13th of the fifth this year. And I write poetry a lot and especially in rehabilitation. Ehm we used to have to fill in daily diary sheets. Well, I struggled with those, so my head counsellor allowed me to write a poem every day. And I don't know, I just used to go to my room and it just flow. You know, I wrote Out of the Shadows in a couple of minutes. \n\n\nInterviewer: Oh, that's so amazing. It's almost like it's it's already there and it's just waiting for you to be put on paper. \nUser:\nYeah. And it helped me a lot because with using for so long, you know, I picked up when I was twelve and I didn't put down until ten months ago ehm you know, in and out, in and out relapsing, getting clean, relapsing, getting clean. I am very emotionally immature. So my poetry helped me to grow emotionally, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. To express yourself. Would you say to like express your emotions? That's amazing. So tell me about in particular when you relapse - would you say that kind of the poem is a product of everything that you go through in relapse?\nUser:\nDefinitely. I mean, it's like addiction is the only disease that tells you you don't have that disease. So it's very hard..for me [emphasis] it's not getting clean, it's staying [emphasis] clean. You know, there's a big difference. Ehm, I've managed to get sort of like two weeks here, three weeks there but long term I've always relapsed because my head will tell me that I can just have the one crack pipe. I can just have the one injection of heroin. But past experience has proved to me that there's no such thing as just the one...you know once I pick up, I'm off and running again. All bets are off.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yes. So, yeah, it sounds like you've had quite the journey. Quite the experience. \nUser:\nYeah. Well I mean I've done everything... I've done geographicals: I mean I came out of one treatment centre early and ended up going to live in Israel. Ehm I was in Israel, in (city) for twelve months. The second night we were there, me and this other girl that I left rehab with we were walking down the promenade and there was a lad sitting and he looked up and it was my friend from CE and he was using over there so straight away I got back onto the heroin over there. And yeah, it took me twelve months to save up enough money to get a ticket home. Because all my money was just going on gear and heroin and crack.\n\n\nInterviewer: OK. Wow. So is that sounds like it's almost like you kind of took you right back like you were you were ready to be, you know, you just got off treatment and rehab and then you were ready for something new and fresh and you went to Tel Aviv, which is a long way off. And then and it's almost like like it found you back or something like that. \nUser:\nYeah like I have to be really careful because my head will tell me that I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses and how wonderful it would be to have that first pipe again after being clean for so long. Or the first injection again after being clean for so long, you know, it sort of like put it through rose tinted glasses. And instead of seeing how it would really take me, which is back to absolute desperation and no family, no friends, no money, no nothing. And, you know, sat in the bedroom on my own with the sharp needle in my groin, you know, that's the reality of it. But my head also like focuses on, 'oh, you've been clean for so long now, [name], it'd be like having the first pipe all over again, you know? And it's ehm, that's not...I have to really question myself and fast forward situations, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yeah. So it's an internal battle. \nUser:\nIt is, very much so. I don't know if you're interested, but I wrote a letter to say about goodbye to addiction. Do you want to hear it? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, I'd love to. \nUser:\n[reads her poem] 'Goodbye to Addiction. As I write this letter, I'm slowly managing to suffocate you. You've crushed me for nearly 30 years, although in the early days you convinced me you were my friend, in some instances my lover. In the beginning we had some good times. You made me feel confident. You supported me when I was feeling lonely. You gave the courage that I lacked, especially when I was in groups of people. You promised me the world and helped me out of having to live with reality. Together we really are double trouble, a dangerous combination. At first you enabled me to be a part of but by the end you have me ostracized from all my friends and loved ones. You had put me in an emotional prison. You went from providing me with everything, taking away all that I have spiritually, mentally and emotionally. The morals and values such as empathy, honesty and consideration you stole from me. You turned me into a monster. Your self-centeredness and hedonistic approach to life destroyed everything in its path. You crept into my life from all angles and tried to destroy me. For many years you consumed all my thoughts in the form of anorexia and self-harm. You were never satisfied, always wanting more. No matter how much money I had or how many drugs I fed you, it was never enough. These days I'm so aware of how committed you are. Perhaps a hard pill to swallow is that you are me and you will always be a part of me. But nowadays I'm in control. It's up to me how much headspace I give you. In the past you've enabled me to justify things that were so wrong. Sticking needles in myself, stealing of loved ones and taking advantage of the vulnerable. I never realised you were out to kill me and so our love affair continued. But now I see you for what you are and I'm building a defence against you. You are part of me but you no longer define me. I'm gaining knowledge and therefore power to defeat you. Treatment is really tough and has revealed some ugly truths about you. It's almost too painful to put into words. I've gained strength slowly to start challenging the stinking thinking that you put into my head and I now question your motives and have the tools to fast-forward dangerous situations that you would love me to indulge in. You want me to see through rose-tinted glasses, but I see clearly now I know where you would take me back to: A life of misery, not just for me, but for all those who love and care about me. I don't need you anymore because I'm learning to like me and grow in confidence. For so many years. I truly believe I couldn't live without you. I can't live with you either, and I now know otherwise. I have the skill I've learnt in me to put you firmly in your place. I have a future plan with me based firmly in recovery. I have the support of other recovering addicts who will see you in me even when I don't and will support me with keeping you at bay. My future plans do not involve you. You are not invited. [connection buffered] But now I firmly believe that I am a survivor. Just one day at a time, 10 minutes at a time. You can't hurt me. But I have to keep vigilant. I'm starting to enjoy my life surrounded by people who love and cherish me. I see beauty all around me now within my friends and also in nature. The further I get away from you, the clearer my thinking becomes. The more I appreciate everything I have in my life today. Freedom from the obsession to use. Sometimes I still have amusing thoughts. That's all they are, thoughts. Today I have the strength not to act on them. And so this letter to you, the departing addict, is a letter of letting go. You are no longer my identity, just for today. I am clean and sometimes serene. Goodbye addiction. \n\n\nInterviewer: Wow. I'm interested in, you know, how what does it feel like? What does relapse feel like? \nUser:\nAt first, relapse is very exciting for me constantly. And also my relapse is the using part of my relapse is right at the end because it's my my head relapses well before I pick up the drugs. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK, in what way is it a thought? \nUser:\nYeah it can be, it can be little things like stopping doing meeting - AA meetings. Stopping connecting with other addicts ehm lack of structure and routine. You know, these things all start to dissipate and at the end it leads to picking up. And it can be very exciting, the thought of relapse. You know, you get the racing heart and anxiety and you know, that first first substance that you put in is quite pleasurable. But very quickly, when you realise what you've done, especially when you got a head that's full of recovery - and how to stay clean, your using is never the same again because you know that there's an answer and you don't have to be doing it. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK, yeah. So that's interesting to me. So would you say the way you relapse then feels differently after you've been in treatment? So for example, your first two relapses in your life are probably felt differently than now. You're fifteenth, sixteenth relapse because you've got you had already full recovery and you've learnt so much.  \nUser:\nYeah, definitely. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So tell me about kind of maybe you know what, what do you how do you feel about having relapsed twenty, twenty times? \nUser:\nIt's pretty devastating, you know. And you think why people around me getting it and I'm not...you know why can these other people stay clean and live Life on life's terms, and I just can't seem to stay clean for any substantial amount of time. So then all the the self-loathing and disappointment and regret and sadness, that all comes into it. But with me as well, I've learned some people have a relapse and it may last a week or two weeks. When I relapse, I'm back out there for months. You know, I honestly don't believe that if I relapse again now, I don't think I'd get back. It will kill me. \n\n\nInterviewer: So when did you when was kind of like your first relapse? And how can you maybe walk me through a little bit of your experiences? \nUser:\nMy first relapse was when I was 19. Ehm I've gone to a detox centre and ended up like with this guy as well and we left together and we scored on the way back to his house. But in all honesty, I wasn't doing detox for myself. I was doing it to placate family and stuff. My heart wasn't in it. I knew I knew deep down in my soul that I hadn't had enough. So I went out and did more research and that took me back out for about three years. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So when you relapsed, did it take you longer to get back into recovery? Or how did you get introduced to recovery or anything? \nUser:\nWell, the first treatment centre, not detox, the first rehab that I went into was in 1999 and they introduced me to Narcotics Anonymous meetings. We have to do a meeting every night in treatment. And I'll be honest, at first, I thought, 'oh, my God, what are they all talking about?', you know, a bunch of lunatics talking about God, how's that going to get me clean? And instead of looking for the similarities in group, I look for the differences to separate myself from these people. So I could tell myself that I wasn't an addict. And I was very resistant to it, you know, ehm nowadays I fully accept that I'm an addict. And, you know, using substances is just one area of addiction, you know, it runs right through my life on all different levels. You know, I'm a self-harmer. I've been anorexic. I've been obsessed with things very easily and tried to fix constantly trying to fix that internal void with external stuff, which doesn't work. You know, it's an internal job. It's about finding my higher power and filling myself with that. \n\n\nInterviewer: Mm hmm. So I'm wondering, um has going through so many relapses changed the way that you see yourself when you compare it to back in the first couple of times? \nUser:\nI did see myself as a failure and a disappointment. Ehm I didn't believe that I'd ever get recovery. I didn't think I was worth recovery, to be honest. You know, I resigned myself to the fact that I was gonna be a heroin addict for the rest of my life...But things are very different today, you know, very different. Ten and a half months...I've been clean...yeah, ten and a half months. And I've done nine months altogether in treatment last year. And I believe I can't do enough for my recovery. You know, my using was twenty-four seven. So my recovery needs to be twenty four seven. \n\n\nInterviewer: That's interesting. I've never heard that before. Yeah. That's a good way of looking at it isn't it. \nUser:\nOh yeah. When you're in active addiction you don't get a day off. You don't wake up one morning and say, right today, I'm not going to use. So it's like every morning when I get up, you know my recovery has got to come first.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yeah. So I'm assuming that now you're kind of looking at yourself more with confidence of of like it's really interesting to me that you said you didn't believe it's possible. And I wonder how you made that shift. Like, was that just another kind of experience? \nUser:\nWell, no. I just think, like, today, I've got so much in my life and I've realised I can either have crack and heroin in my life and nothing else or I can put the crack and heroin down and everything I've ever wanted. \n\n\n\nInterviewer: Oh yeah. So you're actually it's an it's a choosing like you are actively every day you're choosing. \nUser:\nWell over the past, in the past when I've been clean I've had many reservations which were taking me back to using ehm and I couldn't see life without drugs being involved. But today, very, very different. You know, I mean, I don't I don't want anymore. I want a life. I want to live and experience everything that it comes with. No, because when you're using or drinking ehm life just passes you by, you don't notice anything. You don't feel anything. \n\n\nInterviewer: There's this song, I don't know if it's Macklemore, but something like everybody dies, but not everybody lives. Just like you actually choosing life, you choosing to live fully like rather than letting it pass you by. \nUser:\nRelapse actually fills me with fear today. I've got a very healthy respect for the disease of addiction, you know what I mean? And I'm under no illusions where I, I haven't got another recovery in me, you know, I really haven't. I have to do this this time. Ehm one thing I do every day is just live for the day, you know, because if I look in the past, the past is painful. If I look into the future too far, it's frightening. But keeping it in the day and being present in the moment, you know, days turn to weeks - weeks turn to months - months hopefully turn to years. You know, but like my parents will say, 'oh, promise me you're never going to use again'. And I can't make that kind of promise, but I can promise them that for today I'm not gonna use. \n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's right. You're not setting yourself up for failure. And has anybody else, like maybe around you, your family, your friends, have they noticed a change in how they view yourself after your relapses? \nUser:\nOh, massively. Massively, yeah. My mum and dad can put the head on pillow at night and go to sleep without fear of police ringing them to say I'm dead or something. Ehm people have said that the light is back on in my eyes, you know, and yeah, generally I'm a really, really positive person. You know, obviously I have my dark days, but I live in a recovery home with three other addicts who are absolutely amazing people. We've become really, really close, like a little family, and we support each other. When one of us is having a wobble, we support each other. And that's what it's about, you know, because for me personally, I need to be around people who understand the disease of addiction. I need to connect with people on a daily basis, who understand how my head works. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes, that is so that is good. OK, so um can you tell me a little bit about how, how you felt. Maybe you can just think about a few relapse experiences, but how you felt before you relapsed or right after so kind of walk me through what it feels like to go through relapse? \nUser:\nWell, I felt initially I felt really good, and that was the time that was my problem. I kind of got a bit complacent and I thought I didn't need Narcotics Anonymous fellowship meetings anymore. And I stopped ringing my sponsor and for a while I was fine without doing any of that. But slowly but surely, you know, it came back 'oh I just I won't use heroin and crack' but I'll use pregabalin and Xanax and OxyContin and morphine and stuff. You know, I'm not I'm not 'I'm not an addict anymore, you know, I can control it, I'm not using class A's'. And then and then within a few weeks, you know, I was back to square one using class A's, injecting again and, you know, neglecting all my responsibilities, you know, I've got trouble because I didn't pay the council tax doing because I could spend all the money on drugs ehm and end you know, very sick and in a very bad place very quickly. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So it sounds like a little bit of a there's a part of you that's a bit overconfident, kind of leading you into it. \nUser:\nThat's why I need to check myself all the time, you know, because when you do get overconfident that's and you start thinking, 'I don't need meetings anymore', you know, I know my own head when my head tells me not to do a meeting I know I need to do a meeting [laughs]. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. That's yeah, that's right. That's amazing that you kind of put that into place. You've learnt that about yourself. You're like checking yourself. Yeah. So in terms of when you, you know, if you had to describe what relapse means to you, what would you say. \nUser:\nWow. Ehm for me, it's giving in. It's giving in. You know, and that's what the addict inside of me wants, it wants me to give in, it wants me to isolate it wants me to be in self-pity mode. Yeah. It wants me to harm myself, you know, it wants me to be isolated from all the people that care for me. Ehm just a crappy existence basically. Because that's what it is, it's an existence, it is not a life, you know, because, like, it doesn't matter how much money I've got or how many drugs I put into my system, it's never enough. Never enough. It's like Groundhog Day. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, so that is so interesting, so it's it's almost like like I think even you said in your poem is this this kind of dark where it's like a force that kind of really drags you down, like really wants the worst for you, yeah. \nUser:\nYeah, I don't buy into all that, you know, the dark side. You know, sometimes if I'm if I'm honest, sometimes I miss the chaos and madness of using, you know, the thrill seeking behaviour. I still find it quite exciting but is dangerous. You know. \n\n\nInterviewer: You kind of are aware of the consequences.  \nUser:\nThat's why the most important tool in rehabilitation was to fast forward things. So when my head is telling me, 'oh yeah you can, you've been clean, now you've got control, just have the one' I thing 'wow' fast forward it and think where would that one take me? Because it wouldn't just be one, it would be one. And then two, three, four, five, six off and I'm running again, you know. And who knows when I'd get back if I ever made it back. \n\n\nInterviewer : Yes, that's right. I think that's even my next question. How would you how would you define relapse? \nUser:\nFor me, I call it 'hit the fuck it button', you know where I've had enough and I think 'screw this' and, you know, you can seem more appealing than being straight, you know, free to be in recovery. And there's a difference between being in recovery and just being abstinent. Big difference. And you have to make life that's worth living more than the life you had when you were using. Otherwise, you're going to end up using again. Simple as that. \n\n\nInterviewer: So I wonder, you said there's obviously a lot going on in your head and you said you kind of already relapse previously before it actually happens in your mind. \nUser:\nYeah. Relapse starts well before you pick your drink or drug up. It's your thought process. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Right. Exactly. So would you say that you're kind of when your thought process starts like this, it's kind of you do you would you remember all the things that you learnt in recovery about, you know, you know, choosing the life and not being empty and all of these things that you just said? \nUser:\nI think I do remember all that ehm but when I have relapsed in the past, despite knowing all that, I just end up using more because I know the answer is there, you know, and how to get clean and stay clean but...my head just thinks once I've had that first one well fuck it, I've relapsed now might as well carry on. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. OK, so it is if you, if you start using once it's you would define that as a relapse for you? \nUser:\nYeah. For me there is no blips or small lapses. Relapse is a relapse you know. And people are lucky to get back from it a lot of people don't you know. It kills a lot of people sadly. But I think today I genuinely do have a healthy respect for relapse. You know, I have a healthy respect for the disease of addiction. And like I said, using is just one of its...[pauses]...One of its characters. Yeah. Ehm, you know, I get obsessed and compulsed around other things, self-harm is the prime example. Ehm self-harming to me is like using you know that obsession comes on you to do it and you can't you can't not think about it, you know, and it all gets out of control. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah, yes. How did it feel for you to go back into treatment? \nUser:\nI was relieved. This last relapse was like two and a half years. And I was using against my will every day. I did not want to be using, I wasn't enjoying it anymore. I just could not stop, I just couldn't stop. And the drug team were really fantastic because I was actually peer mentoring whilst I was using pretending to be clean and I came clean to my boss and within five days they got me on a methadone script. Within four months they got me to detox and into rehab and I couldn't wait for the day to go into detox. I knew it was going to be tough and I did a four and a half week detox in Liverpool and they wanted me to get off the crack and reduce my heroin intake and go to weekly detox public meetings at the Inspire service in Blackburn and I had had to say to the doctor, look, I cannot reduce my crack use. I can't do it in the community. That's why I'm asking to be taken into rehabilitation. There was just no way I could even reduce my crack using you know, you can't you can't do that. If I could do that, I wouldn't have been trying to go into detox in the first place, you know? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, right, yeah, so so that's interesting to me, that is it's like almost this instant relief of like it's going to I'm going to feel better soon. \nUser:\nI hit I hit an internal rock bottom and, you know, and the day I went into detox, I have the gift of desperation. You know, I got to the point where I was, you know, it took me to my knees and I had to surrender. I had to accept defeat. You know, I tried using successfully so many times unsuccessfully. And, you know, it completely beat me. And I know that that's going to be the same in the future. If I relapse, I'm never going to win. I can never use successfully. Some people can. I just can't, you know, and I've accepted that today. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes I can play with it in my head and and play with the thoughts in the room with them for a while but more often than not. Like I said, I used the fast-forward method. And, you know, I'm able to sort of like bat them off and almost laugh at them, you know, because that's the addict in me. That's the part in me that's the addict. And that's what I'm up against on a daily basis. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yeah. So would you say that kind of the way that you were feeling this relief of going into treatment? Was that always the same or did that change with having had more relapses? \nUser:\nIt changed with having had more relapses!\n\n\nInterviewer: OK, how was it before? \nUser:\nWell, it was just for a bit of a break before, you know, I had no intentions of staying clean. It was just it was just a break. And then, you know, I thought I'd go and get myself sorted and, you know, come out and be able to use, like, other people who use successfully do, you know. I'm fortunate, you know, and I used to be bitter and resentful towards people that could use socially without it affecting their life. Well, that just leads that just leads to, you know, resentment and hostility to people. You know, I've just got to accept that's something I can't do or I'm I'm I'm probably just as crazy, if not crazy clean that I am using. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So I'm really interested in how you said using successfully. So what, what gives you the impression people use successfully. What is that. \nUser:\nWell for instance people who, who have, you know, nine to five Monday to Friday jobs, you can come home on a Friday evening and enjoy a glass of wine or a bottle of wine, you know, maybe go to the pub and have a few pints or go to a nightclub and have a couple of ecstasy or sniff a bit of coke at the weekend. But financially, emotionally and socially doesn't doesn't destroy them. You know, they're able to function. They're able to meet the responsibilities. I can't do that because I don't have an off switch. \n\n\nInterviewer: Right. So, what makes you think that it doesn't affect them? Like I get the point that they can meet their responsibilities and maybe to the outsider seem to be able to do all the things they need to do. But like, how do we how do we how do you know it doesn't affect them? \nUser:\nWell, it may affect them but not to the extent that it, you know, it spiritually bankrupts me. You know, it robs me of everything. You know, I'm not able to function as a daughter, a sister, lover, a friend, you know, all that goes out the window. Because the only person I'm concerned about is me, and where I'm getting my next hit from. And I don't care what I have to do to get it, you know. And, you know, I resort to shoplifting, I resort to selling drugs and my behaviours are all over the place. I can't even look after myself. So, these other people who I would class as successful or social users. You know, it doesn't affect them to that extent. \n\n\nInterviewer: So what effects would you say did have the number of relapses. So, 20 is quite a lot large number. What effects did that number have on your recovery, like maybe on your motivation for recovery?\nUser:\nI've been in and out of Narcotics Anonymous since 1999. And, you know, and I've attended groups in all sorts of states. Obviously have attended them clean, but I've attended them under the influence as well. And I've lied to my peers about how clean I am. And you know, I've got up for [connection buffered] knowing full well that I've been using ehm but in total denial, you know, and it gets harder each time you relapse. It gets harder to get back into recovery because the shame and the embarrassment and the guilt, you know, they cripple you really you know, I've taken people through the 12 steps whilst I've been using. That's how much in denial I was about my using. You know, like I sais, a peer-mentored for 18 months whilst I was using. And then when I came clean to my boss that I'd been using, I ended up back in the group as a client with the very people that I've been mentoring. And that was really difficult...really difficult. But [emphasis] having said that, ehm I got a lot of respect for my colleagues for being honest in the end and, you know, and and going back to those groups as a client rather than a teacher. You know what I had to show humility. And and I did. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, that is unbelievable. Yeah. I cannot imagine that that that does show that to show character as well. Like, like you said, humility and in character that you actually you are able to show up and yeah. It's all part of you, you're part of the group. \nUser:\nYeah. Yeah. You know fortunately for me the rooms of NA, they welcome you back time after time after time. You know, they never shut the door on you or people and never you know, people never judge you or downgrade you for relapse. You know, they are just glad that you keep trying. \n\n\nInterviewer: OK. Actually, yeah, so did you always kind of think about relapse the same way or the way that you understand relapse? Did it kind of change from having had so many of them? Or did you always say relapse is using again, kind of. That is the the thing from your first time using and then from your last time. \nUser:\nYeah. Yeah. Ehm. I just think I think it's the more the more knowledge you have about recovery and knowing what you need to do, the harder you relapses get because you know that there's a solution out there. You don't have to be doing it because at the end of the day, you self-harm. You know drinking and using is just another form of self-harm. And each time it gets harder, you know. You can't fool yourself anymore. You can't keep yourself, you know. You know, you know, the answer is, you know how stay in recovery and you end up using even more to block those thoughts and feelings out. \n\n\nInterviewer: So what would you say, does it feel like to I guess when you were in recovery and you were back after having used for two and a half years, your relapse kind of lasted two and half years, and then you went back to treatment with that group that you even supported, which is amazing in and of itself. And like can you maybe explain just a little bit about how that felt to you to kind of then move forward and then kind of getting back to, OK, I know I know what I need to do. \nUser:\nYou know what it is? I was a grateful addict. I was grateful that there was a programme out there for me to use and implement in a life that could keep me clean. And I've seen it working in others in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. And I'd seen the light in the eyes of the people that were in the rooms who were clean and sober, you know, and they were all working a programme on a daily basis. So, I knew I had to do and I knew because I used with some of these people and they used to the extent that I used, you know, and they were clean and they've got things together. They got family back in the life. They had jobs or studying, you know, real quality of life, good relationships with family, lovers, friends, all that kind of stuff. And I knew it was mine for the taking if I put the work in like I said to you before about where recovery needs to be 24/7, you know, because it's true, you get out of recovery what you put into recovery, you know, and it is no coincidence that when you work in a programme in your life, life gets easier. \n\n\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. So I'm just looking at the sheet. So another question I had was, what would you say you learnt from relapse? Like, would there have been anything that you would have done differently, knowing what you know now kind of looking back at you relapse? \nUser:\nYeah I wouldn't have relapsed at all [laughs]. If I had know back then what I know now, I could've saved myself many, many years. But I mean, I was thinking about what a waste of life I'd led but, you know, that's made me who I am today. And yeah. And I'm kind of OK. I'm kind of at peace with that, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. I remember you said something about in your first couple of times that you relapse, that you kind of didn't feel like, just like this inner drive to wanted to change like this. You weren't quite ready or you weren't like deep down you just didn't want to change. \nUser:\nYeah. The bottom line was I wasn't ready to change. I hadn't fully conceded. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah, yes. It's almost like it's almost like you kind of need to get to that point and then you're yeah. I guess just kind of looking backwards from it. \nUser:\nYou have to hit...rock bottom and when I say rock bottom, I don't mean about like all the extras in life cause jobs part is blah, blah, blah. You know, it's an internal thing. I think when you reach that that pure rock bottom and the like I said, the gift of desperation. I don't know any addicts or alcoholics who stay clean who haven't hit a rock bottom. You know, you have to lose everything to realise just how much you want life. \n\n\nInterviewer: That makes sense. So I can yeah. Like an internal awakening, like looking at it with different eyes. Fresh eyes like this needs to change. \nUser:\nI was, I was spiritually bankrupt. I had nothing, I had nothing left you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: So interesting. And so I guess on like a day to day basis. Now I know that you're going to meetings which is amazing. So how would you say how else would you protect yourself from relapse? \nUser:\nEhm keeping myself out of dangerous situations, not associating with people who are using or drinking. Ehm, keeping it in the day. That's a big one. I'm trying to look after myself, not get too tired or not get hungry. You know, the little things in life. Cuz they say, you know, when you feel restless, irritable or discontent, check yourself. And it's usually because you're tired or you're hungry.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes. Yeah, did that kind of change with the number of relapses you've had? Like did you do this differently? \nUser:\nYeah, I can't be around people that are using because just...Well, it's just the danger zone, you know. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah. Yeah, yes. So did that kind of change they all the things you're doing now to protect yourself from relapse, did that change with the number of relapses you've had? \nUser:\nYeah it has changed because I thought that I could get clean and carry on doing a living the way I've been living, but without using drugs. And it's just not at all. You know, you need to change your playground. It's changed members. You need to change behaviours. Because if you not doing those things, eventually you're going to pick up, it's as simple as that, you going to pick up. \n\n\nInterviewer: So, you know, in a way it would be like, you know, almost like when I asked you, you know, what could you have done differently? It's almost like putting all of these things in place that you're doing now. \nUser:\nYou can't. You can't because it's like wearing a comfy pair of slippers, you know, for so many years. The people that I associate with who I did class as friends obviously they are not, they were just using associates but at the time they were friends, you know, and I still wanted contact with these people. And an ex-partner of mine as well. And I just had to change everything. I got a new phone, a new number there's nobody having my number anymore. I had to walk away from the home of 16 years. I had to walk away from my partner of three years. You know, I had to change everything because if you go if you've got one foot in the past an one foot in the future, you pissing on the present. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah.  It's almost like you had to kind of go through that to like get to that point of... \nUser:\nYou can't, it's all in the past. It's like being a dry drunk, you know, you're not in recovery. The only thing you're not doing is drinking or using or everything else remains the same. And eventually that will lead you back to drinking or using. It will. \n\n\nInterviewer: So, um, is there in terms of your experiences with relapse and all of this, is there anything else that you would like to say or anything you think is important for us to know?\nUser:\nAnd just like I said, not to let complacency slip in, because that would take you back as well. But like I said, the fear that I have around relapse. You know, I had a friend wobble a few days ago and the thought of fucking that person relapsing you know, it was horrendous, you know, because I don't want it for myself, but I don't want it for anyone I care about either, you know? \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you managing that thought of like there's a healthy fear or respect. And you also do know in your head what you need to do for yourself to protect yourself. So how do you like... What does that make you feel? \nUser:\nEhm like I said, if you work in a programme and you put your recovery first, they say a grateful addict never relapses. And I'm grateful for so much today. You know, every morning I wake up in a nice, warm, comfy bed with a roof over my head, bit money in my pocket, food in the cupboard, surrounded by people that love me. You want nothing from me. Those kinds of things are priceless. I mean, it's nice to have the shiny things. Don't get me wrong of them, I'm bad at fixing my internal with external stuff to fill the internal void but I'm getting better, you know. And trainers aren't going to kill me, crack and heroin will.\n\n\nInterviewer: Thank you so much for sharing all of this with me. \n\n",
  "Transcript_Tristan.txt": "Interviewer: Ok. Ehm awesome so so what was that like for you for you to like what did you think about this research when kind of when you were asked to participate what were your initial thoughts?\nUser:\nCurious. No at the end of that day my curiosity know what I mean in as you said before but in being a voice but in for but in the recovery community. But in the thing about relapse is (.) I mean people think that relapse is part of recovery but in but its not. Its not it happens to be but in part of their recovery but its no [not] part of everyone’s recovery. Cause like I’ve seen people nut in that have been long term in recovery that haven’t relapsed. But in and when people do relapse but in they always get told but in its part of recovery but they forget to tell them it’s part of your recovery. Cause everybody’s recovery is different.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah (.) so would you say that for you relapse is kind of part of ehm so you kind of cause you keep it very separate from your recovery so its not something you look at that will just happen. Is that right is that how you see it or?\nUser:\nEh In (.) it doesny [doesn’t] it happens know what I mean unexpectedly. (inaudible) in the behaviour nut in, the pattern (.) I mean some people call it a dry relapse that you don’t realise until you’ve actually relapsed. Not in once you’ve come out of that relapse nut in and you can look back and say well I wasny [wasn’t] doing this and I wasny [wasn’t] doing that I can actually see why I relapsed \n\n\nInterviewer: Ok, yeah yeah yeah that’s interesting, em how ehm how would you define a relapse from your own kind of (.) experience or how would you define it?\nUser:\nHow I would define a relapse? Basically, a relapse for me is going back to my crutch, going back to my coping mechanism but in because I know but in that the drugs nut in temporality nut in take away my inner feelings and emotions that I’m feeling at that present time. My em they do some people say that there is a difference between a lapse and a relapse. But em to me em there is nae difference nut [no] a relapse is a relapse whether you take it once or everyday (.) I guess everybody’s got their own definition\n\n\nInterviewer: Ok that’s interesting yeah (.) yeah yeah yeah so em I’m curious so uhm you do you want to maybe share a little bit about your kind of uhm history of so you said you used eh opioids and cocaine is that correct ((yes)) and probably some more so uhm can you maybe just share a little bit about your your times in treatment or your relapses or you know how maybe when did you start using kind of your background a little bit.\nUser:\nYeah em I started using drugs when I was 9 year old (.) and that because I was in a children’s home nut in in with older kids who were teenagers but in because the social work department thought n that the older kids with be an influence (.) but and so I obviously I started dabbling in way in insolvents but and then onto cannabis (.) nut in and because I was young I started (.) started getting into crime but in and stealing out of shops but in and breaking into houses nut and as the as the crime started nut in the drug use escalated n I was I was sent to prison but for the first time when I was 15 years old (coughs)aye I was addicted to methadone nut in for 23 year and obviously I was using heroine, heroine and crack on top of that but in but I was institutionalised right ((ok)) I was caught in a revolving door but in getting caught doing a crime going to prison not in and then going to prison not in for two or three months not in then going back oot [out] not in as my as my sentence was finishing n I was full of good intentions always phoning my mum up saying mum I’m gonna to do it this time I’m gonna to try my hardest but as soon as I got out I was released for prison na end it after nut that the novelty of getting released wore of I went straight back to my crutch, which was heroine but in that was my coping mechanism it was more to do with, I was clinically allergic to responsibility I couldny [couldn’t] handle it (.) nut then in prison I didn’t have to be responsible I got everything done for me. My washing my cooking my cleaning I didn’t have to do nothing, n that plus know what I mean I felt safe in prison. No but em I was safe. But em em plus in prison nut in I was somebody. N I thought the bigger jail sentence I got the better it made me look but its only em now looking back I can realise nut in how much of an idiot I was n but I had to (.) I got told not in that I needed rehab nut but I didn’t believe it I thought was alright but and I can remember I come to treatment centre for an interview and nut I still didn’t l believed that I dinny [don’t] want to come here I dinny [don’t] need help I can do it own my own aye [yes] but I ended up I ended up arriving here but in a broken man ((yup)) and that was 6 years ago but in but as I went through the programme, treatment centre works in four phases but in in phase one and two is basically you’re living in a bubble and phase 3 is semi- independent living so as I went to phase three n where I was having to cook for myself and clean for myself, do everything for myself I went back to my crutch and I relapsed. ((oh right)) and in sort of time in not in treatment centre they have a zero zero zero drug policy and I got asked to leave but by rights I should’ve waited 28 days to reapply, but they broke that rule for me and asked me to come back within two weeks. And two weeks later I come back and when I relapsed at that lodge nut in some people would say a relapse were a mistake but that particular relapse, I didn’t see it as a mistake cause I learnt from that relapse. Naw [no] it sounds it sounds weird, but I did I realised that the reason why I relapsed was because I wasny [wasn’t] being honest with myself I wasny [wasn’t] being honest with my peers I wasny [wasn’t] being honest with anybody I wasny [wasn’t] talking (.) to them I was isolating just being myself and I couldn’t handle the way I was feeling (coughs) but n aye so that is a basically a bit of my journey\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah. That’s incredible so to me that sounds like you almost kind of are taking something very important from it you’re saying this relapse somehow needed to happen. \nUser:\nBut in the reason it needed to happen was because but in all through but in the treatment (.) I was listening but I wasn’t listening because I thought I knew better but n I always got told not in that I should always remain teachable but I thought I couldn’t learn anything I thought I knew everything but n plus I never had any gratitude ((mmhh)) n now I not ehm I have a attitude of gratitude I’ve got to be grateful. \n\n\nInterviewer: Right (.) yeah yeah that’s oh that’s em that’s really interesting to hear how I mean you em you seem to have quite a story from you’re from from being a very young age and then in and out of prison uhm lots of experience uhm. So your personal item because I remember we talked about it and you kind of said that often you would you don’t you throw away stuff that reminds you of those experiences which uh I totally understand so was just wondering did you bring something for today?\nUser:\nI found nothing, I was trying to find something that visualises my relapses but I couldn’t find anything but in but there is one thing that I’ve got that was in my office,((ok)) but in it’s a self-portrait of treatment centre basically the treatment centre I was in ((yeah yeah)) as a constant reminder that eh that that’s where my life begun and that’s where all my relapses led me to basically admitting defeat\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah yes, so so (.) so would you say that uhm yeah so it holds some eh you really connect that with treatment centre so your experiences of relapse and ehm do you maybe just want to talk a little bit more about how you know was it something that kind of uhm like yeah is it something that kinds of comforted you through that time or kind of knowing ok I can come back here or would you like to just explain a bit more about it?\nUser:\nBecause it’s in my office do you know what I mean I see it everyday but in it’s a constant reminder that if I go back to the drugs but in it’s a possibility I could end up there again ((yeah)) but in plus the story behind it is but in that it saved my life but in eh it helped me but in basically but in I’m still on a self-discovery mission trying to discover who I am but in and that place has helped me. See I look at it every day know what I mean eh even though I work here (laughs) ((yeah)) looking at the picture is different to actually working here\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, so do can you tell me about that so how is that different?\nUser:\nBut in the dynamics are different but in because now that I’m a member of staff but in I don’t feel like I’ve done the programme its only when I look at the picture but in that’s when I realise that I was here but in because I don’t see myself as an ex-resident\n\n\nInterviewer: Ok so ehm I think now I would like to just ask you know maybe more personally about you how what did it feel like if you can remember maybe just one or two experiences back what did it feel like for you to relapse like was there what did it feel like maybe internally physically however you want to describe it. \nUser:\nBut in at first but in I didn’t realise it eh I wasn’t feeling there was no emotions but in as time went on I started realising but in how did this happen but in I would say focused well I thought I was focused I started feeling guilty I started feeling ashamed but in I felt as though I had let my family down I had let myself down again and because I was all the guilt and shame nut in that kept me but in using drugs (.) but in as time went on but in every time I relapsed it always got worse that what it was before ((ok)) but cause it was like just going  straight back straight back into addiction even though I just used once nut in that was me I was gone I was addicted again and it was just but in stuck in that hole but in feeling cause I was ashamed I was feeling guilty but in I didny [didn’t] want to tell anyone I had relapsed it wasn’t until my behaviour but in that they basically understood but in I had relapsed but it was but in it just kept on getting worse and worse but it didny [didn’t] stop me. But it my relapse my last relapse but in eh it came out of nowhere it was unexpected but in as I said but in looking back but in I can but in I can identify but in but in I wasn’t really talking to people nut [no] I was meant to be in for someone’s birthday and because we were in treatment another resident said to me would you stick me in if I have a drink and straight away without thinking about it I said why would I I’m going to have one as well and that was me I was off. ((yeah)) but in I started feeling guilty but in because I had brought drugs back to the premises, I had put everybody who was in treatment I had put their eh their recovery in jeopardy because I was only thinking about myself (.) but in I started feeling shame I couldny [couldn’t] handle it but in as I said but in my relapse got worse and worse as what the last relapse did. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, you know what’s interesting is that you say you felt ashamed and I’m thinking ehm like shame is such as strong feeling it’s so attached to who you are…\nUser:\nYeah aye but the reason I felt shame is because of the stigma but in that surrounded the addiction(.) but in I think that’s why I felt shame but in I felt dirty I felt but in (.) it was more guilt but in because I had let myself down I had let my family down\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes so that to me makes a lot of sense that is that guilt of that I’ve done something wrong ((yeah)) I’ve put people in jeopardy ((yeah)) ehm so can you tell me a little bit more about that shame so I guess I dunno where I’m going here but to me shame is more strong stronger than (.) guilt because its almost like tied to who you are as a person if like I ehm like I heard this before that shame is more about I am guilt is about I have done something wrong and shame is about I am wrong have you ever have you ever kind of I wonder if you can maybe kind of touch on that a little bit of of when you go through is it yeah I dunno am I making sense?\nUser:\n(inaudible) the same it was more to do with the stigma that surrounds addiction but in because but in the stigma is that not in every drug addict know what I mean is lying in a doorway not in injecting drugs nut (no) and they dinny (don’t) realise that is there is all different definitions of addiction, you’ve got drug taking you’ve got drug abuse but and you’ve got drug addiction but in it was more to do with (inaudible) shame is quite a strong word and I think it’s a lot easier to say I felt shame, but in I felt guilty.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah ok ehm so can you do you maybe remember that that’s an emotional it was very emotional for you was there any kind of sensation in your body as well or was it like when you remember kind of how you know its almost like you said before its almost like it starts way before you actually do it in your head and with your emotions and then ehm yeah maybe you can walk me through of like how it feels then when you relapse and then when you use again and like what does that feel like for you or what did that feel like for you?\nUser:\nThis is this is going to sound stupid but in obviously but in my my last relapse but in the very tight second that I relapsed it felt good but in cause it was that release ((mmm)) but in it didn’t last long but in it only lasted offt maybe a hour but in and that’s when reality kicked in but in and then is started like what am I doing but in I started naw [no] I already started basically pressed the reset button do you know what I mean like I’ve already started I may as well continue.\n \n\nInterviewer: How long did it last for you do do you remember was it a couple days or weeks or how long did you use then for?\nUser:\nMy last relapse but in that was only a one off but in because I was still on the premises so I was still in that safe environment ((yeah)) but in but every time when I got released from prison and relapsed but in its been weeks but in until I went back to prison because I’m in that community I’m not in that safe bubble I’m not in that environment ((alright yes)) (inaudible) I think environment has a but in a good part to play in it.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah ok yeah so how do you feel about having relapsed multiple times I guess more than ten times ehm how do you feel about that?\nUser:\nHow do I feel but in (.) but in my multiple relapses but in have only happened because I never knew nothing about addiction but in I was blind but in to the support that was actually out the community but in in prison but in and things like but in that I didn’t realise what but in help that was out there but I I was naïve not in any rehab centres, smart recovery meetings, church groups but in it was just non-existent (.) but aye because I never got help but in I think that’s why I continued to release every time I got released from prison.\n\n\nInterviewer: Ok yeah, so its almost like there’s no blame on this because you kinda didn’t know how to deal with it and with your probably the first couple relapses and now…does that sound true? ls it more of like a rational like ‘well I didn’t know then so of course I would relapse’?\nUser:\nNut as I said I woudny (wouldn’t) say but in I didny (didn’t) realise but in I wasny (wasn’t) getting help but in for my drug addiction ((yeah)) cause I but in as far as I was concerned I didn’t have a problem. But as I said but in there wasn’t help out there.\n\n\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah so ehm I I’m wondering has gone through multiple relapses shifted the way that you see yourself like how you view yourself obviously you’ve now said well you didn’t know then what addiction was or you were kind of blind and now you kind of know about it so has it kind of changed the way that you view yourself?\nUser:\nYeah but in I I think but in every relapse relapse that I’ve had in the past but in its always contributed to that but in self-learning, self-awareness\n\n\nInterviewer: Ok, yeah can you tell me a little bit about that so self-awareness about like who you are or addiction in general?\nUser:\nEh my its no self-awareness but in a very but in what I’m doing but in and why I’m doing it ((ok)) looking at my behaviour but in and why I’m behaving like that ((yeah)) just being aware of you know of my thoughts and feelings and actually being able to sit with my thoughts and feelings ((yes right)) which is uncomfortable.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah ehm what about your family or friends how do they view you has that has your relapse experience changed or have they seen a change in you since then? \nUser:\nWell my mum has cause as I said before every time I was getting released from prison id always be on the phone but in promising I’m gonna do it this time but in I’m gonna prove you wrong but in I was like a broken record saying it over and over and over but in she my my mum ended up getting to the point where (.) she wasn’t interested in the boy who cried wolf and even when I decided not in to go to the doctors and start reducing my medication but in and coming to treatment she still didn’t believe me nut [no] it wasny [wasn’t] until I think it was the day before actually coming to treatment she she broke down in tears and started to believe I think this is it you’re going to do it this time.\nBut I still n I still phone her to this day and apologise and but in asking for her forgiveness but in for everything I’ve put her through but nut n she just tells me to shut up and says you’re doing, you’ve done something about it your past is your past but I still feel guilty.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah yeah so how is that for you to kind of be able to prove your mum wrong?\nUser:\nNut [no] its its no its not proving my mum wrong its more to do with looking back at my life but in and looking at the pain and torture I put my mum through but in just like but in every time the phone when she’d jump but in and every time the door went she’d jump but expecting it to be that phone call that I’m dead or back in prison but in and once I was in recovery but in I released but in now she can she doesn’t have to worry about me she knows I’m safe ((oh right)) she not got that worry on her shoulders anymore ((yes)) she just has to worry about herself ((mmm)) nut [no] and it makes me feel good knowing that shes happy and she doesn’t have to worry about me and same with my sister as well, they dinny [don’t] have to worry about me.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah. What about yourself do you do you ever kind of worry or how are you how are you feeling about yourself I guess would be a question?\nUser:\nWhat right this precise minute ((mmm)) nut in I do I am worried I mean in a sense but in because I’m in recovery but in this whole covid pandemic but in has basically closed everything doon [down] ((yeah)) and im but in I usually go to inter fellow ship na but everything is getting done on zoom but in and im getting all zoomed out I’m bored of zoom and because the opposite of addiction is connection ((mm)) right (inaudible) like fair enough connecting to people through zoom but in but it’s better done face to face ((yeah)) cause you on zoom you can sort of hide but in but when you’re face to face but in you canny hide you’re your body language ((yes yup)) but aye so aye but in plus I just got married in August but aye so there is pressures of that like so I just moved in with my wife ((oh wow)) eh but in trying to get the balance between my professional life and my personal life know what I mean and I do to much at work but in the reason I do too much is because but in I know what it’s like ((yeah)) I’ll always go that extra mile but in because I have the capacity to go that extra mile but in but the difficulty is (.) if I dinny [don’t] if I’m no [not] careful, ill end up burning myself out but in and I will relapse.\n\n\nInterviewer: Right yeah so there’s a balance that you kind of have to find not doing too much and not doing too little.\nUser:\nAye aye and trying to find time for myself for self-care ((yeah)) self-care is important ((yeah yeah yeah)) know what I mean I neglect myself\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah that’s amazing congratulations on your wedding that’s wonderful. Uhm so I have another question which is more direct about your experience with relapse and you kind of touched on it already with the feelings you had in your head and the question would be, do you remember kind of how you felt right before you were relapsing and then also right after? You said already that you kind of almost felt an instant relief for a little while uhm was that always the same or kind of uhm did that change from like time to time because you’ve had so many or was it always kind of almost this similar process what would you say?\nUser:\nEh not in every relapse at the beginning was always the same but in because it was always that instant gratification but in that release ((yeah)) but it was more to do with but in after that instant gratification was gone it was just a downhill spiral and (.) the more I relapsed but in the quicker I got into that pit and the quicker I felt helpless and the quicker I went into victim mode aw poor me\n\n\nInterviewer: Mmm yeah, how would you say how did that affect the way that you then started to seek out treatment again? Having had so many relapses, how did that make you feel going back to treatment (.) was there a difference in the first couple of times to the last couple of times?\nUser:\nEhh not in (.) there wasn’t any difference apart from the last one but in the last one where I relapsed and I come back to the main house but in and I came back to treatment it was people that I had already been in treatment with but in and it was more but in I was feeling bad but in because I started treatment before them but in and they were further along in their journey and it was more to do with pride ((yeah)) but in I had to swallow my pride, admit defeat and basically do what was expected of me\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, so there’s almost this kind of I’m sensing like a responsibility or accountability to your mates ((yup)) right to the people you’re in treatment with and ((yeah)) almost like that what are they gonna think about it is that kind of true?\nUser:\nYeah\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, so you said it felt like a downward spiral and like a hole or something right after relapse so how did you then seek out treatment? Was it an instant like ‘aw I need to go back to the house’?\nUser:\nNut in I was basically in denial but in cause I remember they come over nut and they drug tested the full lodge all the residents but in and I admitted it but in but I was making out I was happy but in cause I didny [didn’t] want to them I didny [didn’t] want them to think I was angry I was annoyed with myself but in I was making out but in I’m happy I’m going back to see my family which then I started thinking n started bringing all these feelings of emotions but in im going back to my family but in they’re going to find out I’ve failed again but in another relapse another fuck up ((mmm)) and then so the guilt kicked in again ((right yeah)) but (.) but in having to come back not in and face the music it brought on it felt uncomfortable but in but it felt right.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah (.)I’m interested in how you made that shift of being in denial and like you know whatever you’re going through and all of that resentment towards yourself and then how did you then get drawn into treatment back to say ‘ok I need to get this sorted out’ (.) Do you remember?\nUser:\nIt was basically but in me admitting defeat admitting that I canny (can’t) do this on my own ((ok yeah yeah yeah)) but in stop being stubborn, accept the help ((yeah)) but in all the staff and residents but in they’d always offer me a help and but in because me being stubborn and my pride I wouldn’t accept in ((yeah)) even though I’m struggling ((yeah)) and they could see I’m struggling and they’re trying to help but in but I kept on I pushing them away\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah what effects do you think have had your numbers of relapses on your recovery? (.) So on for example your motivation for recovery did you feel uhm cause we are just on the subject now did you feel like the first couple of times obviously you you relapsed you didn’t really know much about recovery or addiction or treatment or you were you weren’t self-aware ((yeah)) and your last couple of relapses it shifted right you became you were part of treatment you became aware of it you learned about yourself so how did that kind of shift your motivation for recovery and and getting back on track and and that admitting that your defeated and you need help uhm how did that kind of I’m guessing that came about with the more you relapsed the more you kind of learned is that?\nUser:\nYeah but in but in as the relapses happened (.) but in I I wasny [wasn’t] bothered whether I lived or died cause basically every relapsed but in was basically a suicide mission (cough) but in towards the end but in it was more I didn’t want to die I wanted to live but in I’ve got thing to live for ((yeah)) but in ((mmm)) but in I do nut eh I release I was slowly committing suicide without actually committing suicide ((mmm)) but in cause that’s what I took It would’ve been that one hit but in that could’ve been me gone but in I wasny thinking about it ((yeah yeah)) I didn’t care. Plus but in because I had been through treatment and got a taste of recovery and figured out what recovery wanted but in that gave me the motivation to push through and grab it \n\n\nInterviewer: Mmm so it’s interesting that you kind of say you push through and grab it’s almost like its within your power right you are empowering yourself your saying I can push through and grab this like this…\nUser:\nIt’s literally but in believing in yourself but in believing that you can actually do it ((yeah)) obviously you can’t do it on your own ((phone rings)) sorry ((oh)) obviously you canny do it on your own do you know what I mean but you do believe you can do it but in there’ll be others ((yes yeah)) that what your motivation comes through \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah if you had to describe what recovery means I feel like it just fits really well ehm after having after having gone through relapse what would you say so you kind of already said it’s almost like you choose life right you choose life?\nUser:\nRecovery is basically (.) but in doing things but in in your life but in that you’re happy with basically doing things that you want to do but in i.e hobbies things like that ((mmm)) but in that you enjoy that much that you don’t want to go back to addiction. But in recovery is basically rebuilding your life trying to build back everything that you’ve lost i.e friends, family ((mmm)) basically recovering everything that you have lost. \n\nInterviewer: Yeah would you say that kind of understanding of recovery has changed with your relapses? Let’s say the last relapse that you had was it kind of the same understanding you had?\nUser:\nNah nut in cause I thought but in recovery was just being drug and alcohol free ((yeah ok))  but in that is part of but in but recovery but in is a whole change of your behaviour nut in a whole change of your outlook on life but in know what I mean recovery starts within but in true happiness and that is recovery, true happiness\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah, yeah what would you say you’ve learned from relapsing is there anything that you would have done maybe differently if you would have known ehm back then?\nUser:\nEh but in the only thing I would’ve done differently is pick up the phone tell speak to somebody and tell them but in how I’m feeling because obviously nut in my thinking is twisted but in its always it’s always good to get somebody else’s perspective on your thinking ((yeah)) and then plus now that I know where relapse could lead but in so when I’m feeling uncomfortable nut in I play the tape forward but in this is what’s gonna happen so dinny [don’t] do it.\n\n\nInterviewer: Yes, right so it’s almost like having the perspective of actually what will happen if you do this rather than living in the moment you would actually like stop for a moment and be like what is actually going to happen if I push forward ((yeah)) yeah ok yeah that’s a very disciplined view ((laughs)) yeah anything else that you kind of you feel like you’ve learnt from it?\nUser:\nBut in what have I learned but in (.) I’ve learned but in (.) recovery but in is basically but in recovery is there’s basically four important elements but in which you need to build a solid recovery but in which I call but in my foundations but in which is accommodation but in so you feel safe and secure. employment but in so you’ve got but in employment for purpose but in which helps but in give you that motivation but also but in helps you with the bills but in friends in recovery plus friends out of recovery and so that’s what and that’s the four elements that I build in my recovery and that builds recovery network but in and having friends in recovery nut and they can actually see my behaviours cause but in before I see them and they will actually tell me in but in your behaving like this do you think there’s any need for that but in and obviously nah at first not in I’ll get annoyed but in because I’m not happy with them for telling me ((yeah)) but in then I’ll admit defeat and see nut in aye you’re right \n\n\nInterviewer: Mmm yeah so on a day to day basis now kind of how do you protect yourself from relapse how do you manage uhm that?\nUser:\nNot in what what helps me is (.) nut in basically the job I’m doing (mm) that but in even before I started working here but in I used to always come up but in every every Monday but in and do a meeting ehh I was doing all the residents would say but in aww you’re doing brilliant your helping us but in but truth be told but in I wasny [wasn’t] helping them I was helping myself it was just a bonus I was helping them but in because I was coming up here but in for that connection ((right)) so basically but in in plus when I see people but in coming through for a detox it’s a reminder but in how I was when I first arrived at the door and how scared and petrified I was ((mmm)) but in so that helps me when aye (.) but in I do say but in if If a bomb was to hit this place but in tomorrow I’d be lost ((yeah yeah)) but in but lucky I’ve got a big enough support network that I wouldny [wouldn’t] be completely lost but in I’ve got quite a few people but in that I can go to with my problems cause you need more but in more than one person that you can go to with your problems cause if you go to that person but in and their not available they’re busy nut in you need to get somebody else that you can go to so you always need a few avenues of people ((right mhmm)) that you can trust to let all the demons in your head out\n\nInterviewer: Mmm can you tell me about that a little bit the demons in your head so is it kind like do the thoughts come back every now and then of like what could happen if or could you elaborate on that a little bit? \nUser:\nBut in when I say demons I mean just like if I’m walking down the street nn and someone with a can of beer I start thinking oh I could do with a can of beer but in it’ll only be the one can of beer or if a see somebody nut in stoned out their nut but in I start getting jealous ((ok)) only because but in (.) I can only see the good times in my drug addiction I’ve got to force myself to see the bad times ((mm)) know what I mean. In in the beginning the drugs and alcohol were good if they wereny [weren’t] good I wouldny [wouldn’t] be (inaudible) but in as time when on but in the consequences come in ((yeah)) so it it’s a constant reminder not in the thoughts are all in there but not its just a passing thought it will just jump in and jump oot [out] but in but I do believe but in that my addiction wants me dead (.) but in and if I give it that foot hole I’m done but in I I strongly believe that I’ve not got another relapse in me, if I relapse I’m dead (.) that’s’s what I believe (.) but in so I’ve got to keep things to maintain my recovery to make sure I dinny [don’t] relapse (.) right cause my old life it’s there waiting for me it’s there shouting for me but I’ve got to constantly choose to ignore it ((mmm)) to keep focusing on what I’ve got what I’ve got in my life right now and what I’m hoping to achieve\n\n\nInterviewer: yeah awesome uhm would you say that kind of the way that you now maintain your I guess or uhm protect yourself from relapse this uhm staying with your friends and your network uhm and working as a peer mentor which is amazing has that kind of changed with the numbers of relapses did you do something else before maybe when you first had relapsed or the first couple of times or was it always like ok going to meetings, staying with my friends in recovery having somebody to talk to. Was it something that gradually built with your relapse experiences or was it always there?\nUser:\nNah but in it was never there but in it was just but in since but in coming to treatment but in I got taught but in naw [no] basically guided but in this is what could help you but in this is  gonna help you but in strive in recovery and this is what is this is what’s gonna help you prevent you from relapsing and basically just taking that on board ((yeah)) and listening and actually but in instead of listening actually doing it. \n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah yeah yeah yeah ok so ehm so yeah it sounds like you’ve been so if I just recap this so if you know you’ve been through numerous relapses the first couple bits where a bit more ehm like you were a bit more maybe blind to everything around you and it kind of it kept going and going and then there was a point where you kind of felt ok I admit that I’m defeated I need help I can’t do this this I bigger than me I need help and then you kind of started going into treatment and you came into treatment centre and you relapsed while you were there and it kind of they kind of jumped through hoops to get you back on track and help you and uhm initially you felt lots of uhm guilt and shame for having let down other people for how people are in recovery viewing you that you’ve been in treatment with and then uhm at the same time but also at the same time kind of fighting your way through and actually saying yeah I need to do this I need to choose life I need to focus on what I can gain and what I can achieve rather than what I will lose uhm so kind of kind kind of gradually learning about yourself how you tick what what you need what constitutes for you recovery so learning to open up to help asking for help opening up about your emotions and all of this uhm and then kind of getting to a point where you’re now actually uhm healthy and stable and giving back right so its its almost like a healthy cycle that you went through uhm would you say that that kind of did I miss anything? Is there anything else that you would like for me to know about your experiences with relapse?\nUser:\nNo of the top of my head nut [no] I don’t think so ((okay))\n\nInterviewer: Ok uhm is there anything else that you feel like is important to know for people in general about relapse? \nUser:\nBut in as I said before but in relapse happens but in relapse is part of some people journey but relapse is part of some people recovery some but in as I said but in I had to relapse to basically learn ((yeah)) and it just it just depends when people relapse how quick do they get out of that relapse ((yeah)) like it depends but in on the support they’ve got before they actually relapse and then depending on how quick they get out of that relapse ((yes)) cause relapse can go on for years.\n\n\nInterviewer: That’s right yeah yup yeah its really interesting for me to hear that from you that you don’t view relapse as actually part of recovery cause I know that a lot of people see it that way it’s just something that happens right?!\nUser:\nAye but the reason that I don’t see relapse as part of recovery cause if I believe that relapse is part of recovery that’s basically me giving myself the green light to go out and relapse ((yes)) to say oh part of recovery ((right)) it’s part of recovery its gonna happen and that’s bollocks (laughs)\n\n\nInterviewer: Yeah ok yeah so it yeah not giving yourself permission to relapse yeah it makes a lot of sense to me actually yeah. \n\n\n\n\n"
}