Express TC Meeting 04-22-2020

[dougwilson]

Who

The entire community is welcome to tune in and observe the meeting live at the time below. The following people are listed here as explicit invitees to get an email notification about the upcoming meeting:

Invited:

• @expressjs/express-tc
• @expressjs/triagers

When

Apr 22, 2020 - 23:30 UTC

Where

Zoom, broadcasting on YouTube Live

• Viewers: https://youtu.be/kOKYVwIiOe0
• Participants: https://zoom.us/j/305917849

Agenda

• Discussion (maybe decision?) on where to keep org-wide documents (charter, coc, etc.)
• Discussion (maybe decision?) on where to keep personal lists for both org-wide (triagers, TC members) and repo-specific (committers, project captians)
• Express 4.18/5.0 status, blockers, next steps, etc.
• Triager discussion time(?)
  • onboarding more help from the big enterprise
  • how to get involved in Express 5, where do you start?

Propose other agenda topics which can be added to this list.

[gireeshpunathil]

proposed agenda: 4.18 : current status, challenges, support needed and next actions

[ghinks]

Proposed Agenda Items

• onboarding more help from the big enterprise
• how to get involved in Express 5, where do you start?

[jonchurch]

List of pending items for new releases: #100 (comment)

[dougwilson]

Express 4.18 release status:

• everything is lined up to land now
• holding pattern around the new triage & captain docs landing in the repo around the release process
  • discussion on this proceeded in the past week and i provided my recommendation at Triage Edits express#4211 (comment)
  • which is to land the non-changing parts and cut out 4.18
  • additionally, we have in query: deprecate extended query parser express#4208 (comment) discussed not landing that deprecation; some holding to hear objections, but none noted so far
  • if nothing against it in today's meeting, we will not land it

So it sounds like we have the plan now, which I will execute tonight / tomorrow morning if there were no objections 🎉

[dougwilson]

Hi everything, thanks for rocking that meeting! I was just listening to it, but I think there is something I want to bring up: it was a bit off-putting to hear me being "called out" in the meeting I wasn't attending, and then waiting to hear from me? I'm also not sure what "personal situation" etc. is being referred to there. It felt a bit personal, and I'm not sure what other's thoughts are on that particular part. I have the video, but haven't posted it up yet, as waiting to hear about the thoughts around that.

[gireeshpunathil]

@dougwilson - I don't have the recording, but if it is something that came from me, I am sorry - I wasn't fully sure about your attendance status, I thought you wanted to take part, but had something that came up unexpectedly. I remember asking who is hosting the meeting and came to know it was you, plus saw your chat messages. Again, did not mean anything tricky, just did not clearly understand your involvement in the meeting. Hope you are ok with this?

[dougwilson]

I believe that was the part, though I think the main concern I have stands regardless of if I was in the meeting or not.

[Sushmeet]

I wasn't able to be there for the meeting so can't comment yet. Wondering if there is an attendance mechanism or I guess simply saying yay or nay on this thread suffices.

Having said that, I had every reason to come to it, but my work organization had structural changes which impacted people I knew and hence impacted me. I think considering the situation we have with COVD-19 and the repercussions it is beginning to have on people's lives, it would be good for all of us to be even more sympathetic and more understanding and caring.

I say this because even if I had promised to come, I had too much on my mind and I wouldn't have the mental check to come in or to let people know that I can't make it.

Just sharing some thoughts. thanks.

[LinusU]

I wasn't able to attend the meeting either, and I'm sorry for not giving a heads up since I had initially said I would be there. Too much came up during the day and I missed posting an update in this thread...

[jonchurch]

I agree being a topic of discussion when you're not present can feel very unfair, and I apologize if we said anything that felt like calling you out. I don't believe that was anyone's intention, nor would personal attacks be tolerable by the CoC.

I want to say I appreciate you kicking off the meeting even when urgent matters demanded your attention ❤️

I interpreted the intent of @gireeshpunathil's comments at the end of the meeting to be asking @dougwilson about his personal bandwidth for Express tasks in the near future, in regard to the effects the evolving Covid-19 situation is having in everyone's lives currently. I saw the intent being that because your time is essential to the goal of releasing v5, he wanted to know if you needed help anywhere. It was my understanding gireesh posed the question so you could respond to it async when you had a chance to review the footage.

From my perspective, Doug has been very engaged in the project throughout these crazy times we all find ourselves in. Doug, did you feel like your commitment was being questioned, or blame was targeted at you?

[jonchurch]

@Sushmeet my shorthand is a 👍 reaction to the main comment if I'm attending and a 👎 if I'm unable to, but that's just me.

And I feel you about not always being in the right headspace for a meeting. Thank you for the context, and I hope you are doing well.

Personally, I don't think anyone ever owes an explanation or apology for not being able to attend.

[dougwilson]

Yea, it felt a bit pointed; the question was asking about my personal situation and my specific availability. It felt wrong, to me, for a few reason: I'm not sure if we should be asking each other about their own personal situations (unless that person offers it up) especially in a public recoded conversation, and I think we all need to come to some understanding on what availability looks like in this project.

On asking about people's personal situations, I think we should not be asking such questions in general in our project. Some folks may be more willing to share than others, but asking that question on the spot to someone who is may not be comfortable speaking about such matters to effectively an Internet stranger (let alone in a recorded broadcast). If I were in that meeting, I really don't know what I would have replied with, as at least I am not comfortable describing my personal life situations on a public YouTube video. I think we should make sure we are not putting each other in such a position with personal questions like that.

Around the availability, I was even chatting with @wesleytodd last night, and this project is run to be a fun project for everyone to take part in. It is not work. We should be understanding (regardless of COVID-19) that everyone in this project is expected best-effort; if you don't show up to a TC meeting, even if you previously said you would, there are no consequences. You should not feel like this project is above other things in your life. Of course, if you want to do that, you can, but I want to make clear from the TC, that there is no expectation of attendance to these meetings and there is no expectation to respond to some message in a given time frame. The project is built around best-effort and to be something involved in on the side.

So, asking for my specific availability is a hard question; for example, I could promise to do something on one day, but perhaps I got an invite to a friend's party and I want to attend--everyone in this project should not feel obligated to forgo their personal lives for this project.

I hope that is clear and why I'm calling out those questions as perhaps borderline inappropriate for this project--these were open-ended questions not related to some specific goal of perhaps "I would like to have a meting on Mon, can to be there?" or "there is this open issue, when do you think you can do x on it?"

[dougwilson]

To add further for why I felt that way, is that even after this TC meeting, it was noted in a thread on Express that I am "inconvenience[d] to start or run TC" and am "inconvenience[d] to attend / initiate agree upon meetings" which I feel like was quite uncalled for statement. I, for one, have dedicated endless amounts of my personal time into these projects to make them better, keep them running, creating & hosting these TC meetings (even in extenuating circumstances like 4/22). I was talking to @wesleytodd about it, as it has, personally, made me quite upset. It makes me question why I spend my time on this project and be treated in such a way, for example...

[wesleytodd]

TBQH, I have more thoughts on this than I can effectively write. I was going to respond last night but I just got tired and went to sleep, this kind of work is more mentally draining than writing code.

The problem here seems to me to be a values conflict in how operations are run. Traditionally the project has been informal and we have all given our time freely. If that meant missed meeting and less formal process, fine. Yes I agree we did not have enough resources to manage the project completely. We do need to find a new balance, but that does not mean we have to fundamentally change the nature of how we operate now that we are getting more participation and resources.

I think the regular cadence of meetings is good, but it is a change in operations. As you all can see, most of the TC members are not always able to dedicate time each week. Traditionally none of us are paid to do this work, so if we don't have time, we don't attend a meeting. I don't think this should stop anyone on the community from stepping up, as you all have done! Which is awesome and I think @dougwilson and I are very much on the same page here on that fact.

What does this new balance look like? I don't know for sure. I think we need to work that out. One thing is certain to me, I don't want it to include loads of interpersonal conflict because we are trying to push things faster than the group is willing or able to move. If that means a PR holds because we are having a slow but civil conversation then that is a fine trade-off to me.

Like I said when I started, I have a bunch more thoughts on this but need to get back to work, so sorry for an incomplete answer.

[gireeshpunathil]

Thanks to all who responded with candid and honest opinions and insights on this matter! I value and respect all of those.

In an earnest effort to nullify any tension, I am going to take a step back - I will make little or no interactions in this project for a period of time. This is in no way an act of discord or decision in a haste, but my best effort to balance between project's objectives & priorities, and interpersonal relations & mutual trust, with a bias towards the later.

Looking at work items that I have been involved and helping with, this will imply #100 will be impacted and express 5 GA may be delayed. I am not feeling great to leave it in its current state, so requesting someone who is willing and has bandwidth to take it up.

I care and feel for this project!

[gireeshpunathil]

closing as completed, feel free to re-open if there are pending items