Selection issues introduced due to mixed-mode #1729
Replies: 28 comments 60 replies
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Converted to discussion as it covers a number of different related issues with different possible solutions. Issue reports should be limited to a single discrete issue. |
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I do not think there is any prospect of reimplementing a (hidden, non-default) double-click mode any time soon. However, mixed-mode probably does need to be fine-tuned.
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Thank you for moving this to an appropriate place and for your response.
You're correct. Previously I was clicking on the empty space under file name column. It's probably just me, but in my mind, I thought clicking at nothing should deselect. I still do see a slight inconvenience with this method which is that one must always flick the mouse unnecessarily to the very right of the screen. As screen size increases (especially with ultrawides), this might become even more inconvenient.
I see 2 problems with this.
It is incredibly easy to miss the target and lose the entire selection
As with the previous issue, it is very easy to miss the helper icon and open a folder instead. See gifs below. And if a file/folder was previously selected (usually the case when using keyboard arrow keys) one must manually deselect it before using the helper or the key. It could be at the very top and the user might never notice it. This can be avoided by not using the helper and using columns other than file name (for at least the first selection) but this can be bothersome (especially when working with larger screens) since the attention when selecting things is usually on the file names. It is unclear how this would work with column view. With double click, one doesn't have to give a second thought (or any for that matter) to these little things and can just focus on the task at hand.
I meant navigating here. Using the arrow keys to navigate up and down a list. Often times when looking for something in a large list sorted by date, I will arrive at the general time period that is relevant using fast scrolling and then switch to keyboard centric usage for actions. I realize now that I can do this by selecting using a column other than file name but it still isn't optimal. It is also unclear how it would work in the column view without opening the folder itself. For comparison, here are a few gifs of me performing these actions on my 5.1 machine with double-click enabled:
I have been using elementary OS since Luna and though I have tried the single click workflow every now and then, I have always found it way too inconvenient owning to little issues here and there that pile up, and have always ended up enabling double-click through dconf-editor. I hope my feedback is helpful in some shape or form |
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@jeremypw Please expound on the bolded portion. |
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This is just something I remember the project leader saying some time ago. If you view the computer as being used for a series of real-world tasks then there should be an app for each of those tasks which will carry out any required file operations transparently. I never use the filemanager on a mobile phone for example. Perhaps I should have said the filemanager should not be needed for real-world tasks (which for most users is the point of having a computer). So the priority is to develop the apps. |
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I see. When you say "file manager" do you mean Files the app, or something else? |
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Because for almost every regular user of a desktop operating system, file management is critical to their usage, regardless of whether they're a new user or an experienced one, technical or non technical. Yes, mobile OSes don't require a file manager but a mobile OS is not the same as a desktop OS, nor are their goals the same. My father is not a technical user and doesn't need a file manager on his iPhone, but take away the file manager from his computer, and his entire workflow will be crippled. Pretty much every student out there who uses a computer to study needs a file manager to manage their documents/projects/etc of various formats. The list really is unending and to suggest or expect that just because not using one works for you, it will be the same for everyone is an incredibly narrow minded view. This is not a photos or a videos app where there is only one goal and one way to reach it. It is an entire OS that's been made to help facilitate users what they need to do. This philosophy regarding file managers really needs to be reevaluated and their importance researched upon. As the elementary HIG state, design in not your opinion. It should be reasonable, well researched and open to the various use cases that it affects. I think what also needs to be reviewed is how the developers view their users. The OS is marketed towards new users, but a new user is not the same as a novice user who doesn't know how to use a computer. New users need to get things done as well, and they don't always remain a new user either. They too grow, and as do their requirements and usages. Actively discouraging them from using a file manager or anything that revolves around their workflow is not a good way forward; it is a hindrance.
By asking for double-click, I and others aren't asking elementary OS to replicate the workflow of Windows or MacOS, we're asking for a basic "feature" that is integral for file management.
But they are. Normal users use them everyday. Just imagine, what the reaction would be if elementary OS decided to ship without a file manager? Would the uproar be because it's just different from the norm, or would it be because an integral part of a system that people rely on was taken away? (for me personally, Files most used 1st party elementary app.) Focusing on app development should not be an excuse for not making file management in elementary as good as it can be PS: for visibility, @aral's issue and comments in #1800 (comment) are worth reading |
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It is questionable whether the user should need a filemanager to arrange their data in a way of their choosing. The app should allow this through its own interface. At most the Filechooser portal needs to be involved. In elementaryos this is currently provided by Gtk anyway (apart from the pathbar) so mixed-mode does not apply. In the FileChooser you do have to double click to open a folder. |
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I'm afraid I may have misunderstood and now I'm more puzzled than before... |
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I agree that the goal of making the filemanager virtually redundant is some way off - which is why I still work on it. But the design is up to the UX team - I cannot merge anything without their approval. |
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The fact that the FileChooser does not behave the same way as Files itself is definitely a flaw (imo). I think the intention is to eventually to have Files provide the FileChooser portal entirely. |
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Just to be clear, the file manager is not currently redundant and will never be completely so as there will always be devs and power users who want to deal with the underlying filesystem. But "ordinary" users should be able to accomplish their work without going near either the Terminal or the FileManager - although even this is not yet achieved. I have no strong preference for single-click or double-click mode (or mixed-mode) tbh - as long as the interface is consistent I can adapt after a short period, but I can appreciate that if you have to work with both Linux and Windows (or MacOS) you might want to be able to configure them both to use the same mode. |
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This argument doesn't work when you consider the fact that not just devs/power users, but every non-technical person uses and needs a file manager. On a mobile system, this makes more sense. You open your chat app for messaging, youtube for your videos etc. But beyond web related apps, most of the operations on a desktop computer are performed on files. Ordinary users interact with folders and files of various formats and in most cases, individually opening a seperate app and individually browsing to the desired file from there, doesn't just sound inefficient, it makes no sense at all! My father, who is a non technical person, has loads of work related files. Take away his access to a file manager, and his work would be crippled. My late grandmother knew how to use a file manager and for good reason! Because it is integral to a desktop operating system. Consider the following hypothetical, but very possible and extremely non-technical situation: Your friend gives you a USB stick telling you there's some interesting stuff on it. Do you:
What would you, a non techincal person choose to do?
The issue is that single-click navigation makes performing operations on folders a nuisance, without adding anything of value. Maybe it helps your muscles if you are the trackpad user (must be researched upon), but as a mouse user, I fail to see any benefit at all. What does it add to the experience to make up for complicating operations on folders? And what was wrong with double-click navigation that was so important to fix that making operations harder was a fair trade-off? |
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What if Elementary's purpose is not creating Yet Another Traditional Desktop, but something else? We are here in in this phase of their road map giving feedback as desktop users, and we may be wrong to assume that they have to design only for us. Instead, they will take bits and pieces from Desktop that mesh with their vision. Things that we or our parents think is a Desktop (keyboard, mouse, monitor, Windows/MacOS) will be different in the future. For example, we already see Traditional Desktop and Mobile blending with use of touchscreen and touchpads. Plus, there's game consoles, VR, IoT etc., and they all have a lot of users. There's a huge non-traditional desktop user base and new ways of working will be invented. That could explain why they think the way they do. |
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Just to add another opinion from the community: I use Elementary as a power user nearly since it's beginning. What I most like is the highly consistent interface. Even though I'm a developer, I like it beautiful. I really find it disappointing that I'm now forced to install an alternative to Files, just because the team is not willing to optionally allow double click. The default setting is irrelevant for me, but I really don't get why such an intense discussion is necessary for an option. I mean, if there is a convincing reason for not providing the option (like it's maybe a lot of programming work to implement it in the new Files app), it would be comprehensible. But following this discussion, it seems more to be like an ideology (at least I could not find any convincing reason in this discussion for not providing an option). I cannot repeat it often enough, we're only talking about an option! :) |
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@sagacitysite Thanks for your input. Do you feel forced to use an alternative to Files because, like has been said elsewhere, you have to switch between Elementary and e.g. Windows (or another os that mandates double-click)? |
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The main complication with double-click mode in Files is that it does not play well with the Column View, where double-clicking on a folder has a different result to a single-click (it makes that folder the root of the view whereas a single click opens it in a new column), but other than that it is not too hard to support. Personally I think if it were to be reintroduced then it should be officially supported and exposed in the UI. However, that is a design decision. |
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I would push back on mixed-mode making folder operations "difficult" - they do require slightly different methods which may take a little getting used to if you were not previously using the default single-click mode. I do understand however that, for some, the change may be difficult, irritating or confusing especially if having to switch between OSes. |
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I think at this point it is up to the elementary designers to answer these points (if they haven't already done so elsewhere). Depending on which view you are using you may find it easier to get into the habit of using rubberbanding to select (In ListView any area except the icon can be a starting point) or holding down a modifier key e.g. Ctrl before clicking. With the Ctrl key held down you can click once anywhere to select. If a problem is that the target area of the helper is too small, giving rise to unwanted activations, you could raise an issue suggesting it be made larger. A more radical suggestion would be to have a "navigate" helper rather than a "select" helper so that single-click would always select except on the navigate helper. |
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@janxkoci Ah yes, sorry. For most purposes, the text of the name behaves like the icon (at present). The blank part of the name behaviour depends on the operation and whether it is already selected. This illustrates the intricacy of click handling - there are five different areas within a file item that can be clicked together with four different types of click (single, double, middle, secondary), possible modifiers held down and possible dragging or rubberbanding. |
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Just wanted to mention that Nautilus fits perfectly fine into the design of elementary. So for everyone who is annoyed from the mixed-mode in Files, just do
I gave the mixed-mode of Files a real chance and tried to use it for about one month now, but it's still highly annoying and inconsistent for me personally. Especially opening files with a double click, but opening folders with a single click does not really work out for my user experience and I still do mistakes all the time (beside working with it daily). Since it seems to me that the discussion here is fruitless since it seems to get stuck in details about pros and cons of how click experiences should be (instead of a discussion about the missing double-click option), I decided to try other solutions. And I just wanted to share to you that I have tried Nautilus now and was surprised how great it fits to elementary. It may solve the problem for some of you. |
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Hi, I've waited to weigh in on this until after I'd been using 6.0 for a while. With Files, single-click opens folders. However, with the file chooser window that shows up whenever you are in an application and need to select a file (to open, to upload, etc.), you still need to double click to open folders. This is a huge inconsistency that is confusing unless you are already familiar with Files, and even as a longtime elementary OS user, the disparity bugs me every time. In my opinion, this warrants restoring Files' double-click-to-open-folders behaviour. |
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I agree this is an inconsistency (which pre-existed before mixed-mode for those using the default single-click mode). The intention is that Files will provide the entire file chooser (provided apps use the FileChooser portal) - at the moment it only modifies the Gtk file chooser by replacing the pathbar. |
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As always that depends on whether a developer of sufficient calibre takes an interest in doing it 😜 Not sure I am up to it myself. There are a number of related issues already raised e.g. #129. |
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Just wanted to mention that another solution was described to bypass the missing double click option. Here someone describes how it is possible to install an older version of Files: By the way: It seems that many in the community are really unhappy with the missing option: Maybe these two links help a bit to overcome the ignorance from the elementary team against the community. |
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Is there any interest here in creating a fork of Files? In general, I'm not a fan of forks, but there has been no engagement from the designers thus far. The goal would be to allow for configuration (e.g. single vs double click with a setting) but closely tracking upstream where possible. I've taken a few hours to look into what needs to be done. From a technical point of view, it is relatively straight forwards. The main question is the time required. Ideally I'd like some help to maintain a fork, if anyone has experience or is willing. |
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After reading everything in this discussion (including being called enormously ignorant, calls for forks, cherrypicked Reddit threads, and suggestions to use other apps), it has become clear that this will just continue to snowball and become even less accessible for any actual problem solving for Files. I've responded in a couple of places throughout the threads where I saw some ways to actually address reported issues, and triaged a couple of related issues that had already been filed. But this grab-bag discussion of "I disagree with a design decision that happens to be informed by the decade history of this app and the hundreds of thousands of users of elementary OS" clearly isn't productive. 🙃 If you have specific issues with how Files works in its current state, please file those issues using the issue templates as that lets us discuss each issue individually, get to the root of it, and move forward with solutions. Otherwise we're not going to get anywhere. |
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Problem
Single click navigation leads to a few different issues and annoyances relating to selection of folders:
Proposal
Problem number 3. could be solved by opening selected folders using double click, while in mixed mode but this is something that will always be confusing.
All of these issues can easily be solved by allowing an option to use double-click for navigation.
It has been argued in the past that mobile devices and the web don't offer double-click for navigation and the introduction of mixed mode aims for more coherency but it must be kept in mind that on the web the user typically opens a link using the mouse, and at most copies or downloads it. In a file manager, selection, dragging, actions like copy/paste, rename, multi-select etc play a major role. Mobile devices, on the other hand, are a completely different scenario where everything is touch/tap+hold based and for selecting and copying items, the whole window adapts to display checkboxes etc. On a computer, the keyboard is used in combination with the mouse/touchpad and the usage of single-click/mixed-mode has thus far only hindered this combination.
Allowing an option to use double-click would not break the design of elementary, and will be incredibly helpful for those who need it.
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