Noto, Arimo, Open Sans: GREEK ANO TELEIA glyph should be the upper dot of a colon #297
Comments
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@tiroj @SteveMatteson : what's your take on this issue? |
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This is correct: the default ano teleia should sit at the x-height aligned with the top dot of the colon. Our fonts also contain variant ano teleia glyphs for allcaps and smallcap settings: |
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Note that ANO TELEIA and MIDDLE DOT are canonically equivalent. So a distinction in codepoint would not be preserved in some processes, so I would strongly recommend against having different glyphs for U+0387 and U+00B7. For all Unicode cares, these are the exact same conceptual character. Now, if you want a different glyph for ANO TELEIA than the middle dot, you need to add contextual rules that would change the (shared) glyph to something that stands higher. |
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Yes, there is a risk that the ANO TELEIA character can be normalised to the MIDDLE DOT because of the utterly erroneous Unicode canonical equivalence, but I don't think this is a good reason to make the ANO TELEIA glyph wrong by default. Enough text processes do not perform normalisation, or do so only in a buffered state not affecting display, for the ANO TELEIA character to be widely displayed as such. I would a) make the ANO TELEIA align to the Greek letter height and b) provide a substitution for MIDDLE DOT to map to the ano teleia glyph for Greek text. |
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John, not only there is a risk, but it will be normalized most of the time. By requiring someone that wants a different ANO TELEIA use U+0387 you are breaking so many assumptions of Unicode. If you want to serve the Greek users, you should make it work (adjust the vertical position) for both codepoints the exact same way. |
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Reopening this because we do not have a mechanism to produce the desired appearance. There seems to be no argument that the desired appearance is incorrect, just disagreement about how to get there. |
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Sorry, the closing was a wrong click. I did not intent to close the bug. |
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There are a number of unfortunate or simply incorrect canonical equivalences assigned to Greek diacritic marks and punctuation in Unicode, i.e. equivalences between characters whose normative forms are unlikely to ever be the same if properly designed for Greek vs Latin text. My take on this is that the most robust mechanism should always be employed to ensure that as often as possible the correct Greek forms are displayed, i.e. to reduce the likelihood of the bad outcome of non-localisable normalisation output.
It isn't about requiring them to use the Greek-specific characters, but about supporting those Greek-specific characters as, well, Greek-specific. There are publishers who choose to use those characters precisely because they are Greek-specific, and they expect the displayed form of those characters to be appropriate for Greek text. Note that this applies not only to the individual punctuation or diacritic mark characters, but also to precomposed combinations of letter + mark, which might also be subject to NFD decomposition that would result in loss of those correct forms if not for layout engines or fonts providing mapping back to the precomposed glyphs. Localised substitution at the glyph level is a less robust mechanism than providing appropriate default forms for Greek-specific characters. So my recommendation is to provide such substitutions for the generic, non-Greek-specific characters to which the Greek-specific characters may be normalised, in the hopes that such normalisation will happen in layout environments in which a) text has been correctly tagged as Greek and b) support for OpenType localised forms feature is applied. Forcing such caveats on to the Greek-specific characters themselves seems unnecessary and unwise: if one wants them to display as Greek-appropriate forms, why start from a different form? |
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Any updates on this issue? |
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MTI note "Align anoteleia with colon dot. To add a style variant for all cap or small cap settings is TBD" |
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sample text <html lang="en">
<p><span style="font-size:48.0px">·:· U+0387 colon U+00B7</span></p>
</html>Mostly fixed, but also all Robotos look incorrect ( @jamesgk , @roozbehp : what do you think?) en-723-NotoSans-Black.pdf |
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ANO TELEIA is supposed to be aligned with x-height when used after lowercase letters; it is true that it should be aligned to the top of capital letters if text is all-caps —as tiroj described on Aug 5 2016— but it won't be a grave issue if this cannot be implemented. In the case of fonts where the colon is not x-height-aligned, using the upper dot of the colon is the safe way to represent ANO TELEIA based on the textual definition of the glyph in greek grammar. |
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thanks for the clarification!
Steve Matteson
Creative Type Director
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On Jan 4, 2017, at 11:55 AM, tzot <notifications@github.com<mailto:notifications@github.com>> wrote:
ANO TELEIA is supposed to be aligned with x-height when used after lowercase letters; it is true that it should be aligned to the top of capital letters if text is all-caps —as tiroj described on Aug 5 2016— but it won't be a grave issue if this cannot be implemented. In the case of fonts where the colon is not x-height-aligned, using the upper dot of the colon is the safe way to represent ANO TELEIA based on the textual definition of the glyph in greek grammar.
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This issue seem to be fixed |
The correct glyph (as taught in Greek elementary school) for U+0387 "·" GREEK ANO TELEIA should be exactly like the colon glyph with the lower dot removed. The name «άνω τελεία/ano teleia» means upper dot. Middle dot would be «μέση τελεία/mesi teleia».
Some discussion: http://archives.miloush.net/michkap/archive/2011/05/20/10166588.html
Greek grammar textbook: http://www.ilsp.gr/files/Basic_Greek_Grammar.pdf, page 19 of 222, search for "Η άνω τελεία", see the correct glyph in the example text.
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