Macedonian lower case changes to Noto {Sans, Serif} {Regular, Italic}

[marekjez86]

Macedonian needs its own locl features. It doesn't have right now. You can copy it from
"script cyrl;
language SRB;"
Whatever is there for Serbian can be used for Macedonian + see below for more.

Note that I generated the samples using SR (serbian) settings. There's NO locl support for Macedonian so it all looks Russian :-)

The comments below are what is needed to change AFTER Serbian locl features are copied to Macedonian.

My apologies for using "thingy" in my tests (I do not know the right word).

Macedonian characters used in all cases: 'б в г д ѓ п т з к ѐ ѝ' (or a subset) within the following text:

<p><span style="font-weight:700">'What should be next in this character design sequence т,п,? (currently "г") for this font? Lower case "Г" in both Serbian and Macedonian should be created from "п" by dropping the same "glyph part" that was dropped from "т" to create "п".'</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight:700">'Macedonian lower case "ѓ" should be the same character as "г" but with diagonal "thingy" above. Is this correct here?'</span></p>

Here's the list of changes required to make it work for Macedonians:

NotoSans Italic

I think the character currently used above is the correct choice. I just wanted to make sure that the font designer agrees.

NotoSansDisplay Italic

NotoSerif Italic

NotoSerifDisplay Italic

I think the character currently used above is the correct choice. I just wanted to make sure that the font designer agrees.

References:

1. correspondence with the native speakers

according to the native speakers this is how it is taught at schools in Macedonia
( copied from http://www.makedonijaese.com/images/Makedonsko_rakopisno_pismo.JPG )

[jungshik]

Note that this is not a new issue, but just a part of #240.

[jungshik]

Note that this is not a new issue, but just a part of #240.

I was not careful in reading the bug report. In addition to copying Serbian behavior to Macedonian, there's an additional change to be made for Macedonian.

[elTooDR]

Hello,

I was about to write an additional issue when I found this.

I may double up on what may have been said earlier, but I just want to make sure everything is clear.

Macedonian needs a local/vernacular version for a number of lower case characters when italicized. These are mentioned below.

Unicode 0413 - Г г г - IPA /g/ - English equivalent g
Regular | Incorrect Italics | Correct Italics

The correct lower case g does not have a curve on the vertical stroke and it also has macron over it. The correct character would be similar to iota in Greek “ι” as opposed to a mirrored “s, s”.

Unicode 0403 - Ѓ ѓ ѓ - IPA /ɟ/ - English equivalent gy
Regular | Incorrect Italics | Correct Italics

As above, except with an acute diacritic above the macron.

Unicode 0414 - Д д д - IPA /d/ - English equivalent d
Regular | Incorrect Italics | Correct Italics

The lower case d in Macedonian should have the tail pointing down. It is similar to italicized g in English.

Unicode 041F - П п п - IPA /p/ - English equivalent p
Regular | Incorrect Italics | Correct Italics

The lower case p in Macedonian should look like a u with a macron over it. Currently, it seems to be very similar to n in English.

Unicode 0422 - Т т т - IPA /t/ - English equivalent t

The lower case t in Macedonian should look like the character “sh” Unicode: 0428 ш with a macron over it. Currently, it seems to be very similar to m in English.

I hope everything is clear.

The Macedonian Ministry of Information Society (MIO) released a number of fonts (Skola) to the general public which may help - http://www.mio.gov.mk/?q=node/2182. Click on Преземи ги фонтовите to download the fonts.

Regarding г MIO font the current Noto italicized g with a macron is acceptable. However, the macedonian grammar textbook "Правопис" does not agree with this in its render of handwriting in Macedonian.

However, confusingly in the actual text italicized г is the same as the Skola font from MIO.

Г & Ѓ from the Skola font and as is printed in the Правопис.

Sans above, Serif below.

As for which version of г & ѓ should be used, I am not sure. But, older literature uses the characters at the very top, I think only recently has there come to be a change in this character.

Hopefully this will help.

[marekjez86]

@elTooDR : for Roboto Italic I copied portion of your text into bug googlefonts/roboto-2#224 ; Now I'm on a mission to make sure that Roboto is as good as Noto is :-) Feel free to correct/change it. Thank you for your write up.

[KrasnayaPloshchad]

These variants should also available for Bosnian. See the sample on this book: https://books.google.com/books?id=6HTdZ5rxJ-cC

[elTooDR]

Hi,

Is there an update to this?

Thanks

[elTooDR]

I only just saw this now, Are you trying to say that the font in the referenced post is correct or is incorrect?

The text in the sample (https://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-lgc) displays the above mentioned characters incorrectly

[nizarsq]

This issue seem to be fixed, closing the bug for now. If you have any other thoughts please reopen.

[ProjectThreepio]

I'm still not sure if Noto's current implementation is correct, although it is now much closer. There is some discussion of the proper Macedonian forms here:

https://typedrawers.com/discussion/2211/macedonian-italic-gje-localization

Although they start off talking about the "top forms" suggested by elTooDR, the user named Stefan Peev steers them to the bottom forms. Specifically, he uses the chart below:

This chart has three differences from the current Noto implementation:

1. It is acceptable for the non-italicized character "б" (U+0431) to use the Serbian form, but the Russian/Bulgarian form is preferred.
2. The italicized character "г" (U+0433) similarly may use the Serbian form, but a unique form that looks like the Russian/Bulgarian form with a macron is preferred.
3. The italicized character "ѓ" (U+0453) should use the Russian/Bulgarian form with an acute accent and no macron.

As elTooDR suggested, this is probably a recent standardization of the forms, and older references may be inconsistent.

[marekjez86]

@ProjectThreepio : thank you for the very useful feedback. I'm not sure when we will have a chance to update the fonts, but I'm reopening the issue.

[dimztimz]

Please see this issue for a different font where the most correct info can be found liberationfonts/liberation-fonts#10 . I'll show the image here too.

Currently as seen in this comment, https://github.com/googlefonts/noto-fonts/issues/794#issuecomment-661137954 , the font overuses the locl feature and some shapes are wrong.

In regular serif, sans, mono, no variations should be used, the locl feature should not be used. Only some Serbian readers may want the "б" (U+0431) that looks like delta, but from what I see the shape that looks like number six is more popular. For Macedonian the shape that looks like the number six (6) is vastly preferred.

In sans oblique generally there should not be any locl, same as regular. From what I see Noto is actual italic and not oblique.

In italic there can be variations in Serbian and Macedonian. They are not mandated, there is no standard, there is only typographic tradition. See the above table.

I'll summrize the current problems:

1. "б" uses locl in regular but it should not, the 6 shape is preferred.
2. "г" and "ѓ" in Sans Italic are very wrong, they should not look like i with a macron. The arc at the bottom must always be visible.
3. "г" and "ѓ" in Serif Italic are acceptable, but I think that the Russian variant with just a macron is more readable.

[ProjectThreepio]

Looks like our charts on the preferred form of Macedonian U+0453 disagree. I believe the macron is commonly used in handwriting, but it's excluded in many fonts not trying to emulate handwriting. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a native speaker.

[dimztimz]

The quickest fix that is acceptable solution to some degree is to stop using the locl feature for Macedonian and Serbian for "б" in regular, and "г" and "ѓ" in italic. The fix should be only few lines code removed. "г" and "ѓ" without a macron are acceptable too, definitely much better than dotless latin i with macron.