Create List of System Notivications #6922
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Hi, what version of Windows are you running? Thanks.
From: Bill Casson [mailto:notifications@github.com]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 8:20 AM
To: nvaccess/nvda <nvda@noreply.github.com>
Cc: Subscribed <subscribed@noreply.github.com>
Subject: [nvaccess/nvda] Create List of System Notivications (#6922)
Create A dialogue that lists the recent system notifications from the Windows system tray. If not a list, at least the ability to repeat the last notification.
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Windows 10 (64-bit) build 14393
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Use the Action Center in Windows 10 to review notifications. Use windows key+a to go to the action center. To focus on the most recent notification, press Windows key+v
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While this might work in Windows 10, it seems to work intermittently. I was
only able to see some of the notifications that came across. Also, versions
of Windows prior to 10 do not support this and thus this addition to NVDA
would be useful for those individuals.
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You should be able to get at them with windows+b if they are the old style
ones.
…On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Bill Casson ***@***.***> wrote:
While this might work in Windows 10, it seems to work intermittently. I was
only able to see some of the notifications that came across. Also, versions
of Windows prior to 10 do not support this and thus this addition to NVDA
would be useful for those individuals.
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That also does not answer the issue. I must be poorly articlulate what I am
asking. I would like NVDA to be able to generate a list of the help
balloons/system notifications that appear in the system tray. For example,
Skype will pop-up a notification when an incoming message is received but
that does not stay around. Same applies for battery notifications, update
notifications, and other transient notifications. I know NVDA can see these
because it reads them but once they have been read or if a keystroke
interrupts the announcement, than the information has been permanently
lost. Does this not make sense to anyone? In window-eyes, it is called
"Last Flash and Tooltip Control-Capslock-T" on this page "
http://www.gwmicro.com/window-eyes/manual/html/advanced.html" under the
level 3 heading "Miscellaneous Hot Keys"
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Hi, as pointed out by others, this is unnecessary in Windows 10 as messages like these can be found in Action Center. For earlier versions, I’d say an add-on should be written to resolve this, as NVDA’s overall purpose is screen reading, not a message presenter. Thanks.
From: Bill Casson [mailto:notifications@github.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvaccess/nvda <nvda@noreply.github.com>
Cc: Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>; Comment <comment@noreply.github.com>
Subject: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Create List of System Notivications (#6922)
That also does not answer the issue. I must be poorly articlulate what I am
asking. I would like NVDA to be able to generate a list of the help
balloons/system notifications that appear in the system tray. For example,
Skype will pop-up a notification when an incoming message is received but
that does not stay around. Same applies for battery notifications, update
notifications, and other transient notifications. I know NVDA can see these
because it reads them but once they have been read or if a keystroke
interrupts the announcement, than the information has been permanently
lost. Does this not make sense to anyone? In window-eyes, it is called
"Last Flash and Tooltip Control-Capslock-T" on this page "
http://www.gwmicro.com/window-eyes/manual/html/advanced.html" under the
level 3 heading "Miscellaneous Hot Keys"
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Wait, what? |
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NVDA should always support core OS functionality. Notification support for previous operating systems do not provide direct access unlike Windows 10. This should not be left to an add-on.
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Hi, I said "overall purpose". There is an add-on out there (Balloon History) that could be extended to cover toasts in Windows 8.x. As for a feature request like this: someone would come in and ask that we include a dialog to display system tray lists (this can already be done from Windows and an add-on exists that can accomplish this). Although I do understand that a dialog to show past notifications could be useful, it opens us to two issues:
Another issue with this feature is history: it'll show notifications from the moment NvDA starts, so if NVDA is restarted for some reason, past notifications are gone. I think it'd be best to hear what other folks say before we give more opinions (@jcsteh, @derekriemer, @LeonarddeR, any ideas?). Thanks. |
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Hello!
My 2 cents...
1 - Possibly I must have something wrongly configured, since when I open
Action Center only find there the last notification...
Now, just 1 notification from Dropbox, and just from Dropbox should be, at
least, 3 or 4...
2 - It is possible to do not allow installation of the addon in Windows 10,
right?
So, no problems of inconsistency...
3 - Personally, I would like to have such feature on NVDA or in a addon!
Rui
…-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Joseph Lee
Data: 2 de março de 2017 19:36
Para: nvaccess/nvda
Cc: Subscribed
Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Create List of System Notivications (#6922)
Hi,
I said "overall purpose".
There is an add-on out there (Balloon History) that could be extended to
cover toasts in Windows 8.x.
As for a feature request like this: someone would come in and ask that we
include a dialog to display system tray lists (this can already be done from
Windows and an add-on exists that can accomplish this). Although I do
understand that a dialog to show past notifications could be useful, it
opens us to two issues:
Unrelated features: the reason for saying that the overall purpose of NVDA
is screen reading is because of my belief that NVDA should do what is good
at: reading what's on screen and provide ways of interacting with elements.
If a feature is a fundamental thing that people cannot live without, then it
would be best to include this into Core (features such as reading toasts and
web browser support, for instance).
User experience inconsistency: if we do include a dialog that presents
notifications, although it might be useful on older Windows releases, this
means some Windows 10 users would think that NVDA has a way to show past
notifications when in fact Windows already provides a way to view them.
Another issue with this feature is history: it'll show notifications from
the moment NvDA starts, so if NVDA is restarted for some reason, past
notifications are gone.
I think it'd be best to hear what other folks say before we give more
opinions (@jcsteh, @derekriemer, @LeonarddeR, any ideas?). Thanks.
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A few things:
1. I think there's another issue somewhere which covers this. We need to
find this and work out whether it's a duplicate.
2. Windows+b should provide access to all currently visible system tray
icons. There seems to be a lack of clarity as to whether this includes
balloons, however. If there's an example where a visible balloon isn't
accessible, please provide it.
3. If they indeed cannot be accessed with Windows+b as per point 1, we
should definitely provide access to visible balloons, since a sighted user
can still access these.
4. We should not, however, provide access to balloons which are no longer
visible. Once these disappear, a sighted user cannot access them either.
Also, if they disappear, the application intended that information to no
longer be accessible (or provides other means to access it).
5. A list might not be the best way to access this information. An
alternative might be a key which moves the review cursor to the most
recent, then moves to the next recent when pressed again, etc. This gives
the user better access, since they can then do whatever they wish with the
review cursor (read the text, left click, right click, double click, etc.),
all with familiar review cursor commands.
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In response to item 2, notifications such as Skype popping a balloon with
the contents of a real-time received message are not available from the
windows+b shortcut. Skype will display in the task tray a tool tip that
states it is online. 4. As mentioned before, screen reader users receive
data in a serial stream while sighted individuals receive it in a broader
more parallel stream. For example as I have mentioned earlier in this
thread, If I am typing a message, email, or practically anything else, as
soon as I hit another key, I have lost access to whichever information was
provided by the balloon. Windows by default makes a sound when a new
balloon so, I know that information was presented, but if the timing is not
perfect, I am likely to continue hitting keys for at least one stroke after
the sound and thus I loose the notification. To the second half of 4,
application developers have no control of the time a balloon is presented.
The OS presents it for the time the OS does so and it times out after that
time. So, for us to say that the developer no longer wanted the user to be
able to see the information is false and is not something we can make a
valid judgment on. 5. I would feel that the purpose I created this request
for in the first place was implimented in the same or similar fashion to
Window-Eyes. I.e. a keystroke that reads the contents of the notification
and pressing the combination a second time would route the review and/or
the mouse cursor to that location to allow for interaction would be
sufficient. I would prefer the list, but simply allowing the information to
be read when desired and interacted with it if needed would both satisfy
the concerns of the previous post along with the functionality I was hoping
to have access to.
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Yes, it's easier for a screen reader user to miss the notification, which
is why I agree we should provide access to visible balloons. The typing
argument doesn't hold, however. Typing should not dismiss a balloon. If it
does, this will also be a problem for sighted users, since they might be
typing as the notification appears and thus accidentally dismiss it.
Regarding the timeout, it's true that we can't infer that this is the
application author's explicit intent, but we can say that the experience is
equivalent for sighted users. Thus, the application would need to account
for this if it intended the alert to get immediate attention; e.g. by
displaying the alert again.
To summarise, providing access to visible balloons allows for an equivalent
experience. Providing access to balloons which are no longer visible has no
equivalent parallel for users who do not use a screen reader and is thus
out of scope.
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I travel by train quite often, and train wifi hotspots or other wifi hotspots can ask the user to login into a browser window. Sometimes, the browser window does not open by itself, but a balloon is shown instead, asking to click itself in order to proceed. This is also one of those which is not visible in the system tray. I also recall Windows 10 style Bluetooth pairing requests aren't accessible using the system tray. So it is definitely a good idea to build something into NVDDA core that covers it, if it were only a short cut to focus the balloon or move the navigator object to it. |
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Yes balloons and other temporary items seem to have always been an issue in
the tray for screenreaders. None of the makers of screenreaders have quite
got it either. I'm not sure how one gets over this one. Strictly speaking I
guess Jamie is right, but its the speed with which we can react initially
which is the crux of the problem.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Casson" <notifications@github.com>
To: "nvaccess/nvda" <nvda@noreply.github.com>
Cc: "Subscribed" <subscribed@noreply.github.com>
…Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Create List of System Notivications (#6922)
In response to item 2, notifications such as Skype popping a balloon with
the contents of a real-time received message are not available from the
windows+b shortcut. Skype will display in the task tray a tool tip that
states it is online. 4. As mentioned before, screen reader users receive
data in a serial stream while sighted individuals receive it in a broader
more parallel stream. For example as I have mentioned earlier in this
thread, If I am typing a message, email, or practically anything else, as
soon as I hit another key, I have lost access to whichever information was
provided by the balloon. Windows by default makes a sound when a new
balloon so, I know that information was presented, but if the timing is
not
perfect, I am likely to continue hitting keys for at least one stroke
after
the sound and thus I loose the notification. To the second half of 4,
application developers have no control of the time a balloon is presented.
The OS presents it for the time the OS does so and it times out after that
time. So, for us to say that the developer no longer wanted the user to be
able to see the information is false and is not something we can make a
valid judgment on. 5. I would feel that the purpose I created this request
for in the first place was implimented in the same or similar fashion to
Window-Eyes. I.e. a keystroke that reads the contents of the notification
and pressing the combination a second time would route the review and/or
the mouse cursor to that location to allow for interaction would be
sufficient. I would prefer the list, but simply allowing the information
to
be read when desired and interacted with it if needed would both satisfy
the concerns of the previous post along with the functionality I was
hoping
to have access to.
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#6922 (comment)
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I'm not so sure about his. We have a problem having to move focus away and
back to do what the sighted person does with a simple fast mouse click
surely?
Windows really should have or maybe it does have, a balloon or whatever
history somewhere we can get at.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "James Teh" <notifications@github.com>
To: "nvaccess/nvda" <nvda@noreply.github.com>
Cc: "Subscribed" <subscribed@noreply.github.com>
…Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 3:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Create List of System Notivications (#6922)
Yes, it's easier for a screen reader user to miss the notification, which
is why I agree we should provide access to visible balloons. The typing
argument doesn't hold, however. Typing should not dismiss a balloon. If it
does, this will also be a problem for sighted users, since they might be
typing as the notification appears and thus accidentally dismiss it.
Regarding the timeout, it's true that we can't infer that this is the
application author's explicit intent, but we can say that the experience
is
equivalent for sighted users. Thus, the application would need to account
for this if it intended the alert to get immediate attention; e.g. by
displaying the alert again.
To summarise, providing access to visible balloons allows for an
equivalent
experience. Providing access to balloons which are no longer visible has
no
equivalent parallel for users who do not use a screen reader and is thus
out of scope.
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#6922 (comment)
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Yes I notice this on some network taskbar items, you only need to hover over
it and you hear a sound, but nothing appears to happen except focus loss.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard de Ruijter" <notifications@github.com>
To: "nvaccess/nvda" <nvda@noreply.github.com>
Cc: "Subscribed" <subscribed@noreply.github.com>
…Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Create List of System Notivications (#6922)
I travel by train quite often, and train wifi hotspots or other wifi
hotspots can ask the user to login into a browser window. Sometimes, the
browser window does not open by itself, but a balloon is shown instead,
asking to click itself in order to proceed. This is also one of those which
is not visible in the system tray. I also recall Windows 10 style Bluetooth
pairing requests aren't accessible using the system tray. So it is
definitely a good idea to build something into NVDDA core that covers it,
if it were only a short cut to focus the balloon or move the navigator
object to it.
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Hi James, it is not properly the typing, but the typing echo...
Rui
…-----Mensagem Original-----
De: James Teh
Data: 7 de março de 2017 03:59
Para: nvaccess/nvda
Cc: ruifontes ; Comment
Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Create List of System Notivications (#6922)
Yes, it's easier for a screen reader user to miss the notification, which
is why I agree we should provide access to visible balloons. The typing
argument doesn't hold, however. Typing should not dismiss a balloon. If it
does, this will also be a problem for sighted users, since they might be
typing as the notification appears and thus accidentally dismiss it.
Regarding the timeout, it's true that we can't infer that this is the
application author's explicit intent, but we can say that the experience is
equivalent for sighted users. Thus, the application would need to account
for this if it intended the alert to get immediate attention; e.g. by
displaying the alert again.
To summarise, providing access to visible balloons allows for an equivalent
experience. Providing access to balloons which are no longer visible has no
equivalent parallel for users who do not use a screen reader and is thus
out of scope.
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@jcsteh wrote in #6922 (comment) "The typing |
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what about the idea to create a separate buffer once speech refactoring is implemented, and assign to it a separate voice (voice for notifications) and assign a key stroke to it. Then define the time the notification should stay in the buffer (i.e. 15 seconds) and if Windows give the audio warning for notification you have 15 seconds time to press the key stroke to hear that notification again. We could also say 20 seconds or so. |
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because what we can agree on is certainly the fact that we do not need a list with all notifications which can be opened also after 30 minutes or so. So I think a quick way to repeat the last notification wherever it comes from is a desirable behavior. Actually notifications are usually made for events which can change in a very short time so a notification can be outdated after 5 minutes if the event changed multiple times (i.e. batery status). Most applications come with a feature which repeats a notification after a certain time unless they provide a list to see them like Windows 10 actions center. |
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call my notifications also baloons or tooltipps as well. |
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Support for Windows 8.1 ended in January 2023, I don't expect any further accessibility updates to that Windows version. So I propose limiting this discussion to baloon notifications with a short timeout. Toast notifications which are permanent and require an user action are accessible from the notification center in the system tray or by pressing Windows+a shortcut on Windows 10 or Windows+n shortcut on Windows 11. For baloons having a timeout there are more things to consider:
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Create A dialogue that lists the recent system notifications from the Windows system tray. If not a list, at least the ability to repeat the last notification.
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