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Update throwing stamina cost #39987

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merged 3 commits into from
Apr 30, 2020

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CodeBandit
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Summary

SUMMARY: Balance "Streamline throwing stamina cost with melee"

Purpose of change

Stamina cost for throwing right now is unintuitive: base regen (20) + 200 + weight/10g
It disregards the player's strength to throw an object, arm encumbrance, and throwing skill.

Describe the solution

Use the same calculation (minus deft) for stamina cost in melee attacks for throwing. New calculation below:

image

Testing

Throw different objects of varying weights and str levels.

@CodeBandit CodeBandit changed the title Throw stamina cost Update throwing stamina cost Apr 28, 2020
@Mecares
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Mecares commented Apr 28, 2020

I am not sure it should scale with strength, i would assume that higher strength makes you throw it harder not less tiring to throw.

@CodeBandit
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CodeBandit commented Apr 28, 2020

I am not sure it should scale with strength, i would assume that higher strength makes you throw it harder not less tiring to throw.

strength already makes thrown objects go farther. Relevant code below in throw_range():

image

The argument that higher strength doesn't mean it's less tiring to throw needs to be backed up. A body builder would exert less effort to throw an object 2m than a person half their strength throwing that same object 2m. This means strength affects both distance thrown and stamina cost. I can see an argument to be made that it should also scale with distance thrown.

@anothersimulacrum
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anothersimulacrum commented Apr 28, 2020

You're the one making the change, I think you're the one who needs to provide evidence. Stamina represent both muscle exhaustion and aerobic exhaustion (AFAIK), so something an argument that higher strength when throwing has a lower impact on either of those would be suitable.

(This is all my opinion, I'm not the one merging your PR, so be aware some or all of this may not be true)

@CodeBandit
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CodeBandit commented Apr 28, 2020

You're the one making the change, I think you're the one who needs to provide evidence. Stamina represent both muscle exhaustion and aerobic exhaustion (AFAIK), so something an argument that higher strength when throwing has a lower impact on either of those would be suitable.

(This is all my opinion, I'm not the one merging your PR, so be aware some or all of this may not be true)

provided evidence (though analogous):
A body builder would exert less effort to throw an object 2m than a person half their strength throwing that same object 2m. This means strength affects both distance thrown and stamina cost.

Entertaining the possibility this were untrue, strength's effect on melee stamina cost should then be removed since it is a direct copy pasta of melee's implementation of stamina cost (without deft cost).

@kevingranade
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If anything stamina expenditure scales up with increased strength since you also get bonus damage for higher strength. Yes if melee is scaling like this, it needs to be fixed too.

@CodeBandit
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CodeBandit commented Apr 29, 2020

@kevingranade could I ask for a little bit more of an explanation? I seem to be having trouble understanding that higher strength should mean stamina cost goes up. I understand it in terms of more strength = higher damage, but it doesn't sound realistic in terms of stamina expenditure.

@Mecares
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Mecares commented Apr 29, 2020

Well a higher strength should allow you to do the same task with less effort (=stamina drain), or a more strenous task (like throwing further or harder) with the same effort or a significantly more strenous task (like a heavier object further and harder) at a higher effort. Since the player automatically throws harder he should not expend less stamina.

@CodeBandit
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CodeBandit commented Apr 29, 2020

Well a higher strength should allow you to do the same task with less effort (=stamina drain), or a more strenous task (like throwing further or harder) with the same effort or a significantly more strenous task (like a heavier object further and harder) at a higher effort. Since the player automatically throws harder he should not expend less stamina.

Ah, I understand your reasoning now, and see why strength shouldn't increase stamina cost, and have adjusted the formula accordingly.

Also adjusted the str scaling for str as per @kevingranade
The new formula is as follows:
throwing:
image

melee:
image

@mlangsdorf mlangsdorf added Mechanics: Character / Player Character / Player mechanics Mechanics: Effects / Skills / Stats Effects / Skills / Stats Melee Melee weapons, tactics, techniques, reach attack Ranged Ranged (firearms, bows, crossbows, throwing), balance, tactics labels Apr 30, 2020
@ZhilkinSerg ZhilkinSerg merged commit 161371e into CleverRaven:master Apr 30, 2020
@CodeBandit CodeBandit deleted the Throwing-Stamina branch April 30, 2020 22:24
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Mechanics: Character / Player Character / Player mechanics Mechanics: Effects / Skills / Stats Effects / Skills / Stats Melee Melee weapons, tactics, techniques, reach attack Ranged Ranged (firearms, bows, crossbows, throwing), balance, tactics
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6 participants