Melee practice and training dummies

[Termineitor244]

Summary

Content "Added practice recipes for the melee skills"

Purpose of change

Practicing combat is something that a lot of survivors would do to increase their chances of survival before a raid in a city, that way you wouldn't need to risk your life just to understand how to properly punch someone, sadly, it was impossible to practice it in the game.

Describe the solution

Added a bunch of basic practice recipes for melee combat, as well as intermediate recipes for the weapon skills (learning to use real, historical and powerful weapons of their respective skill). In the practice, you use a dummy (or punching bag for unarmed) to train your skills, or a shadow (imaginary) opponent, or some rapidly approaching balls.

Describe alternatives you've considered

Separating the practice recipes for skill, but there isn't much space in the crafting menu.
That, and a lot of different ways to train your weapon skills, like practicing with a body, or making the training dummy a "monster" to train while really attacking it.

Testing

New debug world, searched for melee recipes, none are known at the moment, spawned the magazines of melee skills, the recipes appear and let me practice if I have the relevant weapon or tool.

Additional context

Images

(Added HAMMER quality as a requirement for the intermediate recipes)

I did not add intermediate practice to dodge, melee or unarmed because:

1. Dodge would need something more clever/quicker directing attacks at you.
2. Melee would need a real opponent making and responding to attacks.
3. Unarmed should need a martial art and someone as opponent, or an NPC with high unarmed skill to train you.

Special thanks to @eltank and @keampe for the help and guide provided during the making of this PR.

[Termineitor244]

@marlosscdda, I applied the suggestions, thanks!

[Wokko1]

I think this would be a good opportunity to make punching bags useful.

[eltank]

Can you use a corpse for weapon training (item "corpse")? It's better than a training dummy because it's more like real fighting.

You might want to organize all the combat training recipes into CSC_PRACTICE_COMBAT.

[I-am-Erk]

In general I think Practice for combat skills should require an NPC sparring partner, I don't think you could get much higher than level 1 or 2 doing forms on your own against a dummy. Perhaps someone with more martial arts experience could contradict me here.

[QuintusAquila]

I'd argue that you could probably get the damage specific types up without a partner. At least with swords, edge alignment only matters in sparring when its really bad. If you want to get good at cutting things you practice with things you can cut, not people. So I guess it should consume water bottles/tatami mats/whatever to practice it, but not require a sparring partner.

This is based on the assumption that those three skills are focused on damage in particular, so you should learn by damaging things, not sparring where the goal is minimizing damage.

[Termineitor244]

Can you use a corpse for weapon training (item "corpse")? It's better than a training dummy because it's more like real fighting.

You might want to organize all the combat training recipes into CSC_PRACTICE_COMBAT.

I will reorganize them in CSC_PRACTICE_COMBAT then, the corpse idea is a good one, it can help you to regulate the power of your attacks and to better know the bodies of your enemies (weaknesses, soft spots and the like, and to familiarize yourself with their body shapes).

In general I think Practice for combat skills should require an NPC sparring partner, I don't think you could get much higher than level 1 or 2 doing forms on your own against a dummy. Perhaps someone with more martial arts experience could contradict me here.

Hmmmm good point, personally I think it depends of what you are practicing, the combat skills are too broad in what they represent, against an enemy like most zombies, the most that matters is that you familiarize with their shapes, weaknesses, appropriate distance in a fight, and basic things like not using too much or too little energy in your attacks, dodge is more difficult, and it would indeed require something attacking you to learn it thoughtfully. @Hymore246 could give some insights in the trainings for martial arts?
My suggestion is to leave the practice trainings up to a maximum of level 5, divided in two recipes, one using bodies, some sticks and cordage (to make the bodies stand and be appropriate targets) and the other with shadow targets (imaginary), the experience you obtain with this should be relatively low, and it should take some time to level up only with this type of practice.

Ideally you should have to train with this 2 recipes, go fight some zombies, return to train, and go fight some more, to have a comprehensive learning experience.

[QuintusAquila]

Do you mean get up to 5 with the weapon types or with melee?

Getting up to 5 melee by just hacking at a corpse really shouldn't work. Measure/spacing can be deceptively long, and your mistakes can't be punished or corrected by a corpse. Its hard to say if you overextended if you aren't punished for it. You can certainly learn the basics by just practicing, but 5 implies a great deal more skill. You're also forgetting that melee covers blocking, which isn't involved at all.

[Termineitor244]

Do you mean get up to 5 with the weapon types or with melee?

Getting up to 5 melee by just hacking at a corpse really shouldn't work. Measure/spacing can be deceptively long, and your mistakes can't be punished or corrected by a corpse. Its hard to say if you overextended if you aren't punished for it. You can certainly learn the basics by just practicing, but 5 implies a great deal more skill. You're also forgetting that melee covers blocking, which isn't involved at all.

Oh, I'm modifying the practices, the melee practice would still be with shadow opponents, but the damage ones (cutting and the rest) will be with a corpse, the 5 melee thing should be different, I was referring level 5 as the maximum to train without an NPC, but I don't have a good idea of how to train up until that level, for now I'm leaving all of the current recipes up to level 3, but if it's considered too much I can drop them to level 2.

Edit: @QuintusAquila something like this, similar to your idea with bottles or whatever (I have not tested the changes yet).
Edit 2: I would like to have this recipes with the corpses be a "second step" in practice, and the first step be with bottles or some other random objects (You could train up until... Level 1 maybe? Using the bottles).

[eltank]

Training melee weapons up to level 3 seems reasonable, since that's the level you can currently train throwing and shooting using a practice target.

the practice recipes train their skills to level 1 in less than 5 minutes, and to level 3 in an equally absurd time

I should probably add a JSON option for scaling the XP gain rate of practice recipes, so that certain recipes can be more or less effective than others.
I think the ridiculously fast level 1 gain is a bug (I noticed that adjust_for_focus can bump 1xp to 100xp), I need to spend some time looking into it further.

[Termineitor244]

Training melee weapons up to level 3 seems reasonable, since that's the level you can currently train throwing and shooting using a practice target.

the practice recipes train their skills to level 1 in less than 5 minutes, and to level 3 in an equally absurd time

I should probably add a JSON option for scaling the XP gain rate of practice recipes, so that certain recipes can be more or less effective than others.
I think the ridiculously fast level 1 gain is a bug (I noticed that adjust_for_focus can bump 1xp to 100xp), I need to spend some time looking into it further.

That would be great! Thank you!

[QuintusAquila]

Edit: @QuintusAquila something like this, similar to your idea with bottles or whatever (I have not tested the changes yet).
Edit 2: I would like to have this recipes with the corpses be a "second step" in practice, and the first step be with bottles or some other random objects (You could train up until... Level 1 maybe? Using the bottles).

That'd make sense. It should probably consume some water as well, since the bottles should be full for cutting practice.
If corpses don't work well, you could also just use some meat, maybe bone and a string for a fleshier target than bottles.

[Termineitor244]

Edit: @QuintusAquila something like this, similar to your idea with bottles or whatever (I have not tested the changes yet).
Edit 2: I would like to have this recipes with the corpses be a "second step" in practice, and the first step be with bottles or some other random objects (You could train up until... Level 1 maybe? Using the bottles).

That'd make sense. It should probably consume some water as well, since the bottles should be full for cutting practice.
If corpses don't work well, you could also just use some meat, maybe bone and a string for a fleshier target than bottles.

Corpses seem to work fine, and I'm still thinking what things could be used for the level 0 -1 practice (apart from bottles), since it would be a low leveled recipe, I want to make it relatively simple, so you can train a little without having to obtain a body.

[QuintusAquila]

Soaked newspaper wrapped around a dowel or stick is another common thing for cut practice.

[keampe]

Corpses are a terrible idea. Something more sturdy that won't rot like a punching bag or mannequin would be far better. Historically, corpses and meat were only really used to test the edge of a sword - even then infrequently.

Something like a jong (striking post with limbs) or pell (striking post) would be much better. Hell, a 5-7ft section of tree trunk hung like a punching bag would do quite well for most weapons practice.

I wouldn't use a corpse, though. With weapons it'll come apart very quickly and unarmed I'd worry about protruding broken bones (infection risk). It'll also stink to high heaven and rot. In other words if you're trying to survive this is not a good idea.

Just my 2c.

• Shane

[eltank]

If you want to learn how to deal more damage to zombies using a type of weapon (i.e. raise bashing, cutting and piercing skills) you need to actually deal damage to zombies. That's how the game is coded. The suggestion here is that you should be able to do it while they're dead too (but to a lesser extent). You can try hitting different parts of the body to figure out where they're weaker, what angle of attack works best etc. You can't get that kind of feedback from a training dummy, though fighting a dummy can improve your form and technique (the melee skill).

The corpse should be used up after a 1-hour training session due to being hacked to bits, perhaps yielding something like butchery refuse as a byproduct. With that in mind you probably need multiple corpses for a single session.
If you're worried about the smell (for RP purposes), just use fresh corpses and dispose of the leftovers.

[keampe]

Sorry, but no. Hitting a dangling corpse is not going to teach you much (if anything) more than just using a striking post. Medieval knights didn't use corpses to learn how to strike past armour. Neither did the Romans or any other army in history. If you need practice on zombies there's a whole lot of them to practice on, and they move. Just go outside.

In short - learn technique on a post, then learn the rest on your opponents who fight back whether that's sparing or real combat. It's how it's been done throughout history and is very effective.

• Shane

[QuintusAquila]

Sorry, but no. Hitting a dangling corpse is not going to teach you much (if anything) more than just using a striking post. Medieval knights didn't use corpses to learn how to strike past armour. Neither did the Romans or any other army in history. If you need practice on zombies there's a whole lot of them to practice on, and they move. Just go outside.

In short - learn technique on a post, then learn the rest on your opponents who fight back whether that's sparing or real combat. It's how it's been done throughout history and is very effective.

• Shane

That'd be because in the real world if you stab someone they die. HP aren't a thing and most wounds are debilitating. In the world of cdda there are situations where you need to extra kill something with a sword, so it makes sense you'd want to make sure you can bash/cut/stab as deep as possible.

[keampe]

Well, two things:

1st: There is going to be an injury overhaul at some point. There are plans for it and it'll make injuries far more realistic than they are now.

2nd: You want to bash/cut/stab as deep as possible in RL too. That's the goal, always has been. Still see no benefit from striking a dangling corpse over the more traditional methods. You develop power by hitting something solid, repeatedly.

• Shane

[QuintusAquila]

Well, two things:

1st: There is going to be an injury overhaul at some point. There are plans for it and it'll make injuries far more realistic than they are now.

2nd: You want to bash/cut/stab as deep as possible in RL too. That's the goal, always has been. Still see no benefit from striking a dangling corpse over the more traditional methods. You develop power by hitting something solid, repeatedly.

• Shane

Wounds are for players not enemies as far as I'm aware.

And the goal here isn't to develop more power, which is represented by strength, but to improve your technique. If you give a random person a sword and tell them to cut a bottle they'll struggle to cut it cleanly.

[keampe]

Then have them cut more bottles.

Seriously, one of the goals of CDDA as far as I'm aware is to be simulationist. As in "What would you do if this was real". Sure there are monsters, but CDDA aims to be as real as possible with just enough caveats to allow for those monsters.

So, what exactly are you proposing? Taking a corpse who used to be human, jamming a meat hook into their back and hauling it up on a chain until it's feet are just above the floor - or maybe you just tie it to a post or nail it to the wall or something - and the hitting it with axes and clubs, stabbing it with knives and spears just to somehow get better at melee.

That might seem "cool" in a video game, but in RL anyone who would do that is extremely mentally disturbed.

No, the way to do what you're proposing is to dissect the corpse properly, note any weak points and then mark those points out on your striking post. Then burn the body or what remains. If you felt that was necessary at all. Think about it - you've already killed one, which means you're capable of killing more of them.

I, for one, don't want to have my 'toon have to engage in psychotic behavior just to practice melee skills when the traditional methods would work just fine and probably better.

• Shane

[wapcaplet]

I just need to weigh in regarding corpses for melee training and say ew, no, gross, please don’t. That is all.

[Termineitor244]

Given the feedback, I will change the use of bodies to mannequins or straw filled dummies. I still think it is a good idea to train with bodies, but I'm not married to it, I will implement the changes as soon as I have the time.

[QuintusAquila]

Yeah, I was more arguing in favor of cut practice, and forgot about the corpse part. I'd still recommend you use meat over a straw dummy for a much less morbid method of practice that real current humans actually do.

[wapcaplet]

To be clear, I would be totally in favor of adding an "Anatomy" proficiency tree that you could study by dissecting corpses (with a practice recipe requiring a scalpel, gloves, disinfectant and so on). But in the context of practing melee, I can't think of any reason you'd prefer a festering corpse to a well-designed training target.

[eltank]

For cutting practice I see that you don't have any cutting weapons/tools yet. Maybe any cutting implement will do?

    "qualities": [ { "id": "CUT", "level": 1 } ],

There are a lot of knives in the game and it would be a pain to list them all.

I'd still recommend you use meat over a straw dummy for a much less morbid method of practice that real current humans actually do.

Animal meat is too valuable to use on practice and tainted meat is just as objectionable as a corpse. I think we should stick with a dummy made out of wood and straw/withered plant/paper/rags bound together with cordage (i.e. stuff that's easy to acquire).

The training dummy will likely be "used up" (damaged) when practicing with weapons, but maybe not when fighting unarmed.

Instead of removing the dummy completely, it could perhaps turn into a "broken training dummy" (as a recipe byproduct) that can be crafted into a functional "training dummy" more easily than making one from scratch.

[Termineitor244]

Good luck with the power, hope it gets restored soon!

Today it seems to be working fine, thanks!

I added some intermediate recipes for the weapons training, just until level 4 because there are no high tier books and because I'm not sure what would be acceptable. I think I added most of the appropriate weapons to the recipes, but I'm sure some should have escaped my search, my rationale behind the weapons was that these should be high damage weapons, historically used and not "fake" or "inferior".

I did not add intermediate practice to dodge, melee or unarmed because:

1. Dodge would need something more clever/quicker directing attacks at you.
2. Melee would need a real opponent making and responding to attacks.
3. Unarmed should need a martial art and someone as opponent, or an NPC with high unarmed skill to train you.

[Termineitor244]

I think this would be a good opportunity to make punching bags useful.

@Wokko1, done!

Added punching bags as a possible tool for unarmed practice (the other ones would just destroy the poor punching bag).

[a-chancey]

After asking if using furniture as a tool is possible on the discord, I've got a suggestion for intermediate unarmed, melee and dodging training:

They could still work, but they would new pieces of furniture, a dodge training bag and a speed bag. Additionally, there's the reflex bag which could help with melee training or dodge.

If you created new tool qualities (dodge training, unarmed training, melee) and assigned them to the new furniture, they could be required as part of the recipe.

A dodge bag would make more sense mounted on a vehicle frame, where the other two could be standard floor furniture constructions.

Recipes could be fairly simple, here's my rough proposals:

Hanging Speedbag: basketball/volleyball, few pieces of leather/cloth/Lycra, short rope, three planks, nails

Reflex bag: ball/fabric as above, steel plate, pipe, spring, welding tool

Dodge bag: same as hanging but two short (or long) ropes

Edit: leave out the wood and make the dodge bag an installable item in the vehicle if that's the chosen route

[Termineitor244]

@a-chancey I searched the items, they would need first to be implemented in the game, but could be good additions to the already existing exercise/training equipment.
About using them for training...
They sound good as options for unarmed or even melee training, maybe dodge too with a book, but I don't think they could serve as more advanced training without the help of an NPC, or maybe with some detailed book about unarmed combat practice with these tools.

For now I'm leaving the PR as it is, if someone implements new furniture like these I can add them to the practices that make more sense, but I'm trying to finish this PR already unless more changes are required.

But thanks for the suggestions! They are good tools to think about as future additions.

[OneThousandResets]

Great addition to the game. Being able to raise melee skills without direct confrontation was something I was looking forward to for a long long time.

As it is right now, though, its too good.

I really like playing very weak starting characters, with 0/0 melee and dodge. Now, once you hit skilllevel 1, you can get to level 3 with almost no drawback in just a few hours of training. Too good.

Possible balance solutions:

Make training take much, much longer. A whole in game day of training to go from 1 to 2 is still a great deal balance wise.
Make training wear you down significantly.
Make training improve your theoretical skill level. This way it still requires first hand experience to hone the practice into actual skill, something that makes so much sense to me.

Probably all three should be added in tandem.

Great job,
Godspeed

[a-chancey]

Make training improve your theoretical skill level. This way it still requires first hand experience to hone the practice into actual skill, something that makes so much sense to me.

Reading trains your theoretical. The whole point of practice recipes is to train your practical to usable levels or learn proficiencies without having to craft 100 of some small dumb item that you're just gonna run over with your car to unload it from memory.

[OneThousandResets]

Make training improve your theoretical skill level. This way it still requires first hand experience to hone the practice into actual skill, something that makes so much sense to me.

Reading trains your theoretical. The whole point of practice recipes is to train your practical to usable levels or learn proficiencies without having to craft 100 of some small dumb item that you're just gonna run over with your car to unload it from memory.

I know. Issue is that melee practice is too good and needs nerfing.

We are talking about melee/dodge btw, which up until now where impossible to train without taking actual damage (even sewer rat tanking requires good armor).

Making it improve theoretical (which may not even be possible to do with a crafting recipe depending on how code works) seems like a good middle way compromise. Still requires actual combat amb damage taking but rewards preparation amd reduces grind.

[Termineitor244]

you can get to level 3 with almost no drawback in just a few hours of training.

This is a problem with all practice recipes right now, any skill that you train will train too fast at the initial levels (0 to 1 being the most obvious one).

Make training take much, much longer.

I want it to take longer to gain skill, but I think its not possible right now.

Make training wear you down significantly.

The activities are already moderate or brisk exercise.

Make training improve your theoretical skill level.

Training recipes exist for practical skill training, books for theoretical, you are supposed to be doing a practical thing with the training, melee only has a recipe for beginner training because of the limits of what you can possibly practice alone. And theoritical skill does nothing but allow higher level recipes and make practical exp easier to gain.